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Hello, I wanted to post this thread to talk about my hang-ups with the essays and seek some opinions on what I should do with a family member. I know there’s another thread where some discussion about the essays is happening but I didn’t want to derail it. I feel like I’m in a really tight place right now. My mother and I have had some good discussions of where I’m at with the Church and I’ve intentionally kept things vague. I don’t attend church every week (or for the whole block) and I’ve made it known that I have some deep moral reservations about some of the things that have happened in Church History. I haven’t told her of how deeply un-orthodox I am or how I feel like I’m on my way out. My shelf is broken. It’s been broken for a while now. I don’t buy the message anymore even though I have deep spiritual and cultural connections with Mormonism. She doesn’t know how “far out” I am. However, as I am living at home for the time being, I can’t 100% be myself in regards to this. To complicate the matter, I’m very close to my mom and 2/3 of my siblings have left the church. She believes that one day they will come back (they somewhat fit the “Laman and Lemuel” label). My other sibling is on her way out. Anyway, my mom has come a very long way with understanding me and being respectful. When I first joined this forum I was terrified of what would happen to her if she found out about me. We’ve made some great steps and there is mutual respect. However, I think the reality of the situation is starting to wear on her, and she’s been approaching me a lot about the subject, not in condemnation, but just trying to understand my perspective. Recently, she made it very clear that she doesn’t understand where I’m coming from and she really wants to understand better. We’ve talked a little bit about the essays, and she really wants to read them, but she’s not good with the internet and wants me to find the link and share them with her–especially the ones related to the issues that bother me the most. Frankly, I do believe she sees all this as a problem that can be fixed and that is part of her motivation for wanting to learn more. She is TBM as they come and has wonderful faith. However, I’ve also told her that I feel like the more she learns about how I feel, the more impatient and frustrated she will become with me for being at the place where I’m at. We’ve had some good discussions where I tell her this has been years in the making—that people get angry with me, because I try their methods of attempting to “fix” this and it doesn’t work for me. Their answers don’t, either.
Anyway, I don’t know what to do. She really wants to read these essays and wants me to send her the ones regarding the issues that trouble me the most. She’s not defensive over the church and is a great listener. She believes strongly in agency. She’s bore her testimony a few times to me but she doesn’t chastize me or anything like that. I just think as time goes on, and as she’ s confronted with more of these issues, she’ll get more impatient and defensive. Or, on the flip side, I don’t want to destroy her faith. It’s so important to her. I just don’t know how to explain my “issues” to her without seeming like I am attacking the Church.
And now, after all that rambling, I get to the point:
She wants me to show her the essays because they’re church-approved and deal with some of the “issues” i have with Church History. However, to be honest, I really don’t like the essays. The one on polygamy in Nauvoo is particularly appalling to me. I feel like the essays are high-level apologetics. I know some of you might take issue with that, but that’s how I feel. I don’t really have an interest in debating that because it is my decided opinion. I feel like the essays have this formula:
“Ah, yes, there are some troubling aspects of church history + gives a sample which barely skims the surface of historical records, ignores loads of information that we DO have, and minimizes the issue + But you see, it’s all good because of X, Y, Z.”
The one on race and priesthood also makes my stomach turn. I feel like it intentionally implies that for decades the Prophets were teaching that black men would one day have the Priesthood in this life, when the reality is much, much, more complex and unsettling than that.
Anyway, I would love and appreciate thoughts from members of the “Stay LDS” Ward. Thanks.
Sorry to say that I hold some of the same reservations you do. The essay on polygamy is beyond infuriating, particularly in that he would invoke the Law of Sarah, the most reprehensible bull crap I ever heard (unfortunately, consistent with D&C 132). The race & priesthood essay essentially kicks it up to God–racism was God’s will, not ours, we just follow orders. I don’t think most people buy that it was God’s will, though, and that was merely implied about the policy / revelation to remove it. I thought that essay was one of the better ones. The seer stone one was better. The Heavenly Mother one likewise didn’t really say anything. *sigh* I don’t think having your mom read the essays is a bad idea. They look like they have obvious holes in them to me. You can say you just don’t know what to make of those holes, that they still leave things open, even if they do (thankfully) address a lot.
To me it seems like the essays were a way to be able to say to people, “You are shocked about learning XYZ? Shame on you as they have been (almost hidden) on the lds.org website, so don’t say that the church has not told you!” And then there is what the essays say (and don’t say). If they were put though a historian’s peer review they would be torn up for not telling the whole story.
It seems to me this was a forced upon the church and the pressure of the Internet will just continue to increase as more of the older “I don’t do that internet thing” pass away.
Even at a high level, why did the church continue to support the book of Abraham and say nothing about the issues with it well after the issues had surfaced?
But then thinking about my mom and not wanting to burst her bubble. I think I would have to say to her, “I am very concerned that diving into this is going to cause you great turmoil”
I think I’d be more disturbed if they didn’t cause her any turmoil. Although different generations came of age “knowing” different things. The essays do many things. Inoculate the rising generation.
- Cede indefensible ground.
- Inform.
- Introduce people to a few topics.
- Provide new apologetics.
- Redefine “anti-Mormon” material.
- Provides a window into how the church interprets it’s history in the years 2013 through 2015.
- Allows people to have open discussions about the issues.
- Provides a subjective take on the issues.
- etc.
I can appreciate the essays for the step they allow the entire body of the saints to take but at the same time recognize the shortcomings. For example, if not for the essays, what could you show your mother to help her come closer to understanding your views?
I see the essays as part of the Church’s move to be much more open about our history, and, generally, I applaud the work that produced and is producing them. Some are quite striking in their candor (like the racial Priesthood ban essay that says, essentially, that the ban was a product of the racism of the time, in which Brigham Young was raised); some are unable to escape the limits of full repudiation (polygamy); some are understandably shallow due to a scarcity of material (Heavenly Mother); all are presented from a “faithful” perspective; but that perspective is much more open and inclusive than has been the case in the past. I am 50; they are a radical improvement over the material of my youth and early adulthood, with the exception of the Heavenly Mother one and the polygamy one (but even that one admits openly that Joseph was sealed to multiple wives of widely varying ages). I would show them to her and let her read them, with the expectation that she will see them very differently than you do. You need to understand and accept that right from the beginning, since any issue you have with her reaction other than acceptance will be hypocritical when you want her to accept you and your view of them. Model for her what you want others to do for you.
university, Great topic; I’m glad you brought this up. I first want to address the essays themselves, then address the larger issue. So… the essays:
To me, it is monumental that the Church has published these. They are somewhat uneven, no doubt. But I am grateful to live in an era where this is even considered. The essays generally have a bias toward belief. If that comes as a shock to anyone, then they are being unfair toward the Church and its people. Of course the essays attempt to bolster faith. How could they do anything else? The Church is right to explore these topics from their own perspective after 150 years of detractors exploring them from an attacking perspective.
I kind of have to disagree with what has been written here regarding the he essay on race and the priesthood. To me, it is the single most important writing that the Church has published in my lifetime. I think it is beautiful, rational, and sincere. It does say that the teaching was always that eventually the priesthood would be given to all men regardless of race. Having lived during the time of the ban, I’m a witness that that was in fact the teaching. Unfortunately, you can certainly read those statements with a view that the article is saying it was God’s plan, but the context of those statements and the essay as a whole leaves little room for anything other than the will of man. It pulls no punches in saying that the policy was born out of an environment of racial tensions and the desire to allow slavery in Utah. Subsequent generations didn’t know how to change it without a revelation and none came until very late. This particular article is such a watershed that I think it would be the very first essay I would want to share, if I were in that mode.
Other than that one, yeah, the essays aren’t perfect. The polygamy essay also bothers me, but at least, as Ray pointed out, it gets information out there that used to be closely guarded. And again, since polygamy is viewed as from God and the Church believes it, it will of course reinforce the faithful view of it.
But, now onto the more important issue.
university wrote:I just think as time goes on, and as she’ s confronted with more of these issues, she’ll get more impatient and defensive. Or, on the flip side, I don’t want to destroy her faith. It’s so important to her. I just don’t know how to explain my “issues” to her without seeming like I am attacking the Church.
With your statement in mind, my question is this: Why are you in the business of discussing issues of the Church with your believing mother?
I know that for all of us, at some time or another, we crave vindication. It’s not because of a fault in me that I left the Church… I’m not a quitter or faithless or evil… it’s the Church’s fault… Right? I mean, don’t we all want to shout that from the rooftops? But it is the more loving and empathetic path NOT to require validation from others; just as we do not force them to receive our permission before making faith decisions. Paul wrote, in one of my favorite NT passages addressing differences of belief among the believers: “The faith that you have, have as your own conviction before God.” (Romans 14)
My view on this is pretty straight-forward. I never put myself in a position where my beliefs are challenged, and likewise, I never put anyone else in a position where their beliefs are challenged. My advise is to leave her alone and find your own faith. I get that you live in the same house and you have all this other baggage of being great friends and not wanting to add to your mother’s misery of losing one more child, etc. But IMO, that kind of dance always seems better when you are drunk at a party than when you think about it the next day. My advice is to immediately figure out what you do believe and be ready to talk about that if that will help your mom feel good about you. Say things like, “I still believe in ___” or “I have come to really appreciate ____” and add in a big helping of “I love how I’ve been taught to live my life by you and by the Church, and I still want to live that way.” But every time you say, “I don’t believe” or “I have lost faith in” or “I have moral objections to”, then you are framing your faith as being opposed to something… and that something is what your mom loves. It won’t end well. My only caveat with all this is that what you believe today will probably change over time. So, coming up with what you do believe right now is a temporary measure to build a message for your mom, but recognize that you will change as you find your path.
Bottom line, the key elements of the discussion that I’ve had with my own loved ones are as follows:
– I’m no longer a believer
– I love the Church and its people
– I believe in being good and doing good (as best I can)… I’m not going to change to be a different person
– My upbringing in the Church has taught me these things, and I’m grateful for it
– I fully support their faith and the Church… I’m not going to do anything to hurt them or the Church.
Amen to every word On Own Now wrote – every, single word. hawkgrrrl wrote:Sorry to say that I hold some of the same reservations you do. The essay on polygamy is beyond infuriating, particularly in that he would invoke the Law of Sarah, the most reprehensible bull crap I ever heard (unfortunately, consistent with D&C 132). The race & priesthood essay essentially kicks it up to God–racism was God’s will, not ours, we just follow orders. I don’t think most people buy that it was God’s will, though, and that was merely implied about the policy / revelation to remove it. I thought that essay was one of the better ones. The seer stone one was better. The Heavenly Mother one likewise didn’t really say anything. *sigh*
I don’t think having your mom read the essays is a bad idea. They look like they have obvious holes in them to me. You can say you just don’t know what to make of those holes, that they still leave things open, even if they do (thankfully) address a lot.
The first time I read the polygamy essay I was upset all day. I was even too distracted to focus on my studies. I’d been trying to make it work. I read it a year later and still had the same reaction.
I don’t know if I can “play dumb” by saying that I don’t know what to make of the holes…when my true opinion is that I very well have “made something” of the holes. I’m trying to figure out how to have this conversation when I feel so strongly but want to respect her and her beliefs. I don’t want/need to convince her of anything but honesty is a big component in our relationship. But thank you. I think I’m leaning towards showing them to her.
LookingHard wrote:To me it seems like the essays were a way to be able to say to people, “You are shocked about learning XYZ? Shame on you as they have been (almost hidden) on the lds.org website, so don’t say that the church has not told you!”
And then there is what the essays say (and don’t say). If they were put though a historian’s peer review they would be torn up for not telling the whole story.
It seems to me this was a forced upon the church and the pressure of the Internet will just continue to increase as more of the older “I don’t do that internet thing” pass away.
Even at a high level, why did the church continue to support the book of Abraham and say nothing about the issues with it well after the issues had surfaced?
But then thinking about my mom and not wanting to burst her bubble. I think I would have to say to her, “I am very concerned that diving into this is going to cause you great turmoil”
I agree with much of your thoughts. These essays definitely are a response to the shifting times and the uncontrollable flow of information online. I do think the Church sincerely wants to plant some “seeds” of knowledge about more troubling issues in Church History with future generations so they aren’t so devastated when they come across the information in their life. I think that is both self-serving and compassionate at the same time. However, the Church must be struggling because I think for some members, such as myself, the more they learn about these issues the more they are unable to reconcile that with their testimony or what is expected of them in order to continue active membership.
Thanks for touching on my concern for damaging her testimony. Maybe another conversation needs to be had where I communicate that I don’t want to attack the Church or her testimony. I’ve found that a slow, respectful, honest approach (although not loaded with lots of information) has worked really well so far for us. But things are changing right now which is why I wanted to hear some input from this community.
nibbler wrote:I can appreciate the essays for the step they allow the entire body of the saints to take but at the same time recognize the shortcomings.
For example, if not for the essays, what could you show your mother to help her come closer to understanding your views?Yes, I understand that for many, the fact that the Church has even acknowledged some of these issues is a great step forward. And it does create a space where TBM and struggling members can meet. I do have some gratitude for that. However, this does not change my predicament.
My problem is I don’t want to show these to her because I disagree with them.If she reads these, she will absolutely want to talk about them and pick my brain. Then I’m put in a position where I have to acknowledge that I disagree with the Church about the content of these essays and they do nothing to calm my reservations. My mother knows me very well and can see through me. I’m not going to try and be deceptive, either, or dance around her questions. That would insult her. That’s part of the reason I’m in this position right now. I’ve been dancing around her questions and not wanting to delve into anything. She’s intelligent and wants to understand. The prospect of her daughter leaving the church and having little understanding as to why is hard on her. I don’t know how to send these essays to her without saying, “I must be honest, I don’t like this essay. I feel like it purposely leaves out information and barely skims the surface of what we actually do know in order to try and minimize the problem. But it’s a start.”
Maybe that’s what I’ll end up doing.
However, I’m not in the business of trying to attack the Church or defend my faith crisis to my mother. There lies the rub.
Old Timer wrote:I would show them to her and let her read them, with the expectation that she will see them very differently than you do. You need to understand and accept that right from the beginning, since any issue you have with her reaction other than acceptance will be hypocritical when you want her to accept you and your view of them. Model for her what you want others to do for you.
This is not a problem for me. I don’t expect her to have the same reaction as me, and as I mentioned before, we have mutual respect. That will not change from my end. My issues are more related to what I wrote to Nibbler and the concern that I could end up damaging her faith.
On Own Now, I think your remarks perfectly illustrate how perspective and life experiences shape our different world views. Believe me, I hear you. Yet, at the same time, I have a different perspective and draw some different conclusions. I’m not only talking about your remarks related to the race and priesthood essay, but your thoughts on the essays in general. However, I still hear you and thank you for your thoughts. Perhaps if I have more time later I’ll respond in more detail.
But now onto your question:
On Own Now wrote:With your statement in mind, my question is this: Why are you in the business of discussing issues of the Church with your believing mother?
Because she is asking me to. I do “leave her alone.” She keeps coming to me about this. She wants to understand.
This is years in the making. She’s known for a while that I don’t attend church (now I do because I’m living with my family). I’ve danced around her questions about why I’m not the TBM I used to be. It’s wearing on her. This isn’t about vindication. I would love for her to continue her life as a TBM because it brings her joy and peace. I know how hard it is to go through a faith crisis–I would never wish it on anyone and I would never want to take her faith from her. But, as I mentioned before, she’s intelligent, and for her, and our relationship, for me to leave the church without giving her any real reasons would be very painful for her. Each relationship is different. This is one where me refusing to divulge information about this would damage it a lot, more so than blunt honestly ever would. I guess the only comparison I can make is a marriage where one spouse has become a non-believer, and the other spouse keeps sincerely asking if they could explain why, but the other one refuses to and then begins to go about life as a non-believer, drinking coffee, alcohol, etc., and no longer attending church, but refusing to explain what led them to that choice.
On Own Now wrote:But every time you say, “I don’t believe” or “I have lost faith in” or “I have moral objections to”, then you are framing your faith as being opposed to something… and that something is what your mom loves. It won’t end well.
Until recently, I’ve done well to avoid these things. Not just with my mother, but with others. Thanks for the reminder to keep this in mind.
On Own Now wrote:My only caveat with all this is that what you believe today will probably change over time. So, coming up with what you do believe right now is a temporary measure to build a message for your mom, but recognize that you will change as you find your path.
This is another problem. Things are subject to change. Right now I feel like I’m on my way out. After I move out of Utah, I might miss the church and come back. I think the possibility is slim, but my heart is completely open to it happening. This makes explaining things to my mom all the more difficult.
I feel like I might be overthinking this or stressing about something too much. Maybe I should just send her the essays and not say anything until she brings it up. Thank you all for your responses and thoughts. I’d love to hear more from you.
university wrote:I guess the only comparison I can make is a marriage where one spouse has become a non-believer, and the other spouse keeps sincerely asking if they could explain why, but the other one refuses to and then begins to go about life as a non-believer, drinking coffee, alcohol, etc., and no longer attending church, but refusing to explain what led them to that choice.
Haha… well, FWIW, I’ve been happily married to a believer for two decades since my faith crisis and she understands that I don’t want to talk about those things. There’s no coffee or alcohol… and I wouldn’t use the word ‘refuses’ more like ‘not something I want to talk about’. We share our love of the good things and our frustration over the non-so-good, but I’ve never once talked to her about the translation of the BofA. It’s irrelevant. Neither her faith nor my different faith are based on historical issues of the LDS Church.I do agree that every situation is different, and of course, you have to do what you are comfortable with. I wish you well.
On Own Now wrote:…It does say that the teaching was always that eventually the priesthood would be given to all men regardless of race…
I don’t want to turn this into a debate about the essays or one particular essay but that’s another example of how the essays can be perceived differently by different people. I’ve seen people take that same passage from the essay and focus on the portions of the source material where the quote came from that weren’t included in the essay, to them the citation was another layer of whitewash.
I’m neither here nor there. The more I look at it the more it looks like Dagobah’s cave.
On Own Now wrote:university wrote:I guess the only comparison I can make is a marriage where one spouse has become a non-believer, and the other spouse keeps sincerely asking if they could explain why, but the other one refuses to and then begins to go about life as a non-believer, drinking coffee, alcohol, etc., and no longer attending church, but refusing to explain what led them to that choice.
Haha… well, FWIW, I’ve been happily married to a believer for two decades since my faith crisis and she understands that I don’t want to talk about those things. There’s no coffee or alcohol… and I wouldn’t use the word ‘refuses’ more like ‘not something I want to talk about’. We share our love of the good things and our frustration over the non-so-good, but I’ve never once talked to her about the translation of the BofA. It’s irrelevant. Neither her faith nor my different faith are based on historical issues of the LDS Church.I do agree that every situation is different, and of course, you have to do what you are comfortable with. I wish you well.
:thumbup: While mine has only been about half that long, the rest is similar. We sometimes discuss what I do believe but never what I don’t. As you say, OON, it’s irrelevant to her faith. She has no clue how deeply I doubt and disagree with some things, and that’s why we are at peace.To the OP, I agree with those who think the essays are small steps in the right direction. Nothing like this would have happened 25 years ago. The small admissions (Joseph’s polygamy, polyandry, and marriages to teens, for example) are actually epic from where I sit. Of course I should note that my questions were never historical anyway.
On Own Now wrote:university wrote:I guess the only comparison I can make is a marriage where one spouse has become a non-believer, and the other spouse keeps sincerely asking if they could explain why, but the other one refuses to and then begins to go about life as a non-believer, drinking coffee, alcohol, etc., and no longer attending church, but refusing to explain what led them to that choice.
Haha… well, FWIW, I’ve been happily married to a believer for two decades since my faith crisis and she understands that I don’t want to talk about those things. There’s no coffee or alcohol… and I wouldn’t use the word ‘refuses’ more like ‘not something I want to talk about’. We share our love of the good things and our frustration over the non-so-good, but I’ve never once talked to her about the translation of the BofA. It’s irrelevant. Neither her faith nor my different faith are based on historical issues of the LDS Church.I do agree that every situation is different, and of course, you have to do what you are comfortable with. I wish you well.
Please understand that I meant no disrespect to your or your personal journey. Just, for my relationship with my mom, never explaining (and I don’t know to what extent) would do more harm than being totally blunt.
Thank you for your well-wishes and for sharing your thoughts.
university wrote:Please understand that I meant no disrespect to your or your personal journey.
Don’t worry, university, I didn’t read it that way at all.The advice that I am about to give may have limited applicability to your situation. I believe that the best course of action is to feed the relationship with your mother rather than to complicate it with church stuff. In saying this I am essentially giving the same advice that I would give to someone with a believing spouse.
Reassure the individual that you honor and respect the heritage that you share in common. In your case your parents raised you to be LDS. It might be important to emphasize how valuable this upbringing has been to you and helped you as you have transitioned into adulthood. There is much about the LDS people that is good and honorable and you respect that.
Reassure the individual that you are not rejecting the lifestyle. You are not about to go out drinking or having one night stands. You have developed a confidence in who you are and where your standards are.
Reassure the individual that you are not closing the door to faith and religious truth… more that you are processing these things and what they might mean for your life going forward. This might seem like giving them false hope but I believe that it keeps options open and avoids extreme positions.
I believe that taking these sort of steps will get to the heart of the matter, your relationship with your mother.
As far as the religious historical matters, I prefer to keep things very general. I find it difficult to have in depth conversations were I do not either pretend to believe their religious PoV or reveal exactly how far I have strayed in my thinking. If they fall back on a quote from JS, the BoM, or even the Bible for authority I can say, “Good point, that is important to ponder”…. or I can reveal that I do not necessarily take JS, the BoM, or even the Bible as being authoritative. That is precisely the sort of revelation that might cause my own dear mother to worry about me.
Best, IMO, to reassure her that I am still the thoughtful, considerate, and upstanding person she raised me to be and that I am having an open ended and ongoing internal dialogue about my faith and how that intertwines with the church.
Just my $0.02
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