No middle ground…

[Anonymous]

So as not to derail the original thread:

Heber13 wrote:

Paulista wrote:

Heber13 wrote:

Just remember that it isn’t all true or all false.

Even though this directly contradicts church teachings? If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization? (Maybe a topic for a different thread.)

And we simply won’t debate that here.

Then why respond to my comment in the OP’s thread? You could have just let it drop since you were late to the game. Per President Hinckley:

“Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”

That quote can be found at https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/loyalty?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/loyalty?lang=eng. A better approach might be to stick with Mosiah 4:27 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/4.27” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/4.27….?

I still have a hard time in light of these kinds of teachings trying to reconcile the cafeteria/redefining everything (prophet, true, scripture, etc.) in the church approach with what is actually taught. This brings me back to “If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the Church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization?”

[Anonymous]

So do you believe if the church isn’t “true” (or if I believe it isn’t) it has no benefit? What exactly is true in our lives? Is my work true? How about school? If this church is true, that would imply that others aren’t (which I happen to disagree with), and if this church isn’t true it implies others also aren’t. If none of them are true, are there no benefits to any church? Are there not benefits to other organizations we might be members of?

Just because you don’t see a benefit doesn’t mean others don’t. I think I spelled that out in the other thread. I can take what I like and enjoy that. I like that we do believe in Christ and an infinite atonement, and even though we don’t talk about that or emphasize it enough, I’ll enjoy what is there. Article of Faith 11 does not differentiate between people inside and outside the church – it specifically says all men.

[Moderator note: The “we simply won’t debate that here” quote is taken out of context from another of Heber’s post. Please be careful about quoting. We certainly will (civilly and respectfully) debate almost anything here, but we don’t take kindly to taking things out of context and attributing things to someone who clearly meant something totally different.]

[Anonymous]

WOW! I don’t know what this thread was all about,…but I’m here!!!

Paulista wrote:

I still have a hard time in light of these kinds of teachings trying to reconcile the cafeteria/redefining everything (prophet, true, scripture, etc.) in the church approach with what is actually taught. This brings me back to “If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the Church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization?”

Here here!!!

I think this is a good question. The all or nothing statement quoted about true or not was given by a prophet,…and yet there is such a debate about what “true” really means. I hear people say at the pulpit, “I know the church is true”…”I know the prophet is true”….”I know the Book of Mormon is true”…and yet I’m not sure I know what they mean (and for that matter, I don’t think they know what they mean either).

Does “True” mean flawless?….divine?…or some type of ethereal “out of this world” nature? A man or organization can be true to a principle, but can they themselves be just true? Does it mean “All of the above”…or something specific?

I think if you get 10 people together and ask them what “the chruch is true” means, you could possibly get 10 different answers!

In my opinion, there comes a point where the line becomes smeared as to what is really being said, and when that happens, what constitutes “middle ground” in the first place?

I think the prophet, when speaking about no middle ground, was talking about loyalty–either you are 100% loyal or you are not.

For me, I can’t be completely loyal to an organization that doesn’t address my basic questions about specific policies and doctrines, and that also teaches it is unacceptable to question those who are in authority because that is “speaking evil [or against] the Lord’s anointed.” I have no choice but to be in the “middle ground”. And yet the prophet says there is no middle ground. I guess that means I am out.

[Anonymous]

Paulista,

I think I understand your concern over the GBH quote. He’s not the only one ever to say something like that. All I can say is that I don’t agree with GBH, nor do I feel bound by his statement to be so black and white. I do think he was a wonderful and inspirational man and any person who chooses to follow him will do well. My respect for him has nothing to do with our disagreements of faith.

Just talking in general terms here, but I have observed over the years that it is extremely difficult for disaffected members of the Church to leave behind the black and white thinking that we were molded with. It’s not our fault; it’s something we inherited from our cultural upbringing. We have a strong desire programmed into us regarding clear distinctions of right and wrong, true and false. Not everyone will be able to let that go, but I think that for many it can be very liberating to move away from that on/off, white/black, good/bad switch and move to a find-good-wherever-we-can approach. I feel at peace with the Church, the Gospel, the culture and I think it started to come about when I stopped thinking in either-or terms… and that was long after my faith crisis.

Paulista wrote:

This brings me back to “If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the Church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization?”

There is a broad spectrum of reasons why people stay in this particular “life-improving organization”. Certainly not everyone does. But just as certainly, some do. I myself am as far down the non-believer scale as you can possibly get, yet I stay. I think there are many good elements of the Church. I believe there are many good teachings of the Gospel. But I believe there is no God watching from the sidelines. I’ve learned to latch onto the things that resonate with me and ignore (or sometimes work to counter) the things that don’t.

Ultimately, it just doesn’t matter to me if someone ELSE thinks there is no middle ground. I can respect their viewpoint, but I don’t have to adopt it.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

[Moderator note: The “we simply won’t debate that here” quote is taken out of context from another of Heber’s post. Please be careful about quoting. We certainly will (civilly and respectfully) debate almost anything here, but we don’t take kindly to taking things out of context and attributing things to someone who clearly meant something totally different.]

Thanks DJ. I also think President Hinckley’s quote is by and large taken out of context, which also makes a difference.

There are many posts and discussions in our archives discussing this. Many times Ray has very eloquently approached that GBH quote and his view on it. I recommend people search for that in the search function of this site.

Paulista, I also highly recommend that you read through the 4 pages of the following thread from 2010 which has some responses from people that are real gems on this “All or nothing” thinking, and specifically the GBH quote:

Avoiding Twisted Thinking

I’m happy to discuss it further in a productive way, keeping our quotes in context with each other. I hear your point and it is a valid one. If you can express your thoughts and questions in this thread as you share your point of view on it … it can be a very productive discussion.

I personally have worked through this and don’t see the GBH quote problematic to me, nor do I see my posts on the other thread that you quoted here in contradiction to all church teachings. I do see some church teachings in contradiction with some church teachings…especially when taken out of context and intent of what was being taught.

I also see twisted thinking as a problem when working through things, not the teachings themselves.

That’s why it is a journey, my friend, and not a checklist. “Black and white” view of the church doesn’t hold up to my personal revelation, no matter what others say to me about it.

Hence, the prism in my avatar. From one source of truth, comes many colors seen by different points of view. If from where I am standing I see red, and someone else is standing elsewhere and they experience blue…who is right? Yes…both are right. Paradox does exist. Embrace it. Because there isn’t black and white only experiences, even if there is one truth. Instead of debating which color is right, I can simply move myself to different viewpoints so I understand why others call the truth blue, even if I move back to finding Red is where I’m planted. We are ALL trying to find ways to describe our experience, our stories. Beware of Twisted Thinking as you do so.

OON wrote:

I believe there are many good teachings of the Gospel. But I believe there is no God watching from the sidelines. I’ve learned to latch onto the things that resonate with me and ignore (or sometimes work to counter) the things that don’t.

Ultimately, it just doesn’t matter to me if someone ELSE thinks there is no middle ground. I can respect their viewpoint, but I don’t have to adopt it.

I can respect this point of view. Just as I respect the person who takes literally everything taught at church. Well said, OON.

[Anonymous]

Paulista wrote:

“If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the Church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization?”

I have asked this myself.

If it isn’t true (or at least the most true) than why on earth would I sacrifice so much for benefits that seem to available elsewhere at much lest cost?

This follows with…How could I build personal meaning into my life without the confidence and framework that I inherited in the LDS church? Would I not then be just rudderless without purpose or direction?

I can completely understand that thought process. It is born from a certain set of experiences.

OTOH, I know that there are millions of people that find purpose and meaning in other “journeys.”

Rather than believing that God will someday have a big reveal and tell everyone that if they did not join the right church then they were wasting their time at best and going to hell at worst – I believe that God will honor the life journey that each of his children has been on. No experience that is good, wholesome, and pure will be discounted or disparaged. Maybe it is not about being right at all, but rather being good.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

“Since the Gospel embraces all truth, there can never be any genuine contradictions between true science and true religion…. I am obliged, as a Latter-day Saint, to believe whatever is true, regardless of the source.”

– Henry Eyring, Faith of a Scientist, p. 12, 31

If other organizations are “life-improving”, that means they have truth.

We should embrace all truth, regardless of the source.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

“If it isn’t all true then what is the benefit of staying in the Church as opposed to participating in any other life-improving organization?”

1. You keep your marriage intact. Many of us have spouses who expect some form of activity from us. And to stop participating altogether would damage/destroy our marriages. Members who encourage us to take our name of the records (NOT that you are encouraging this — I am not implying that), who say “why bother to even come if you feel that way” etcetera are influencing more than weekly attendance. They may be jeopardizing the stability of an entire family!!!

2. We keep our options open to return at some point in the future in case life exposes that our conclusions about the gray matter in church doctrine/history are not correct.

3. We bring peace to other family members who take comfort in seeing our activity in the church.

4. We have relationships there we would like to preserve.

5. The acceptance and open-mindedness we receive from some members nurtures us and builds our testimonies because such acceptance is Christlike.

There are many good reasons for staying even in the midst of unbelief or a commitment crises.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Rather than believing that God will someday have a big reveal and tell everyone that if they did not join the right church then they were wasting their time at best and going to hell at worst – I believe that God will honor the life journey that each of his children has been on. No experience that is good, wholesome, and pure will be discounted or disparaged. Maybe it is not about being right at all, but rather being good.

This is what I would mean if I said the Church was true, not “triumphalist rhetoric” that Richard Bushman suggests we drop.

[Anonymous]

[Admin Note:] This has been said already, but I need to re-emphasize it:

Don’t misquote and misrepresent what others here have said. That will not be tolerated. We are an accepting community, but respect for each other is one of our core standards.

This thread has some wonderful comments, and the central question is valid and appropriate, so I have not moderated or edited anything in it, including the original quote in question. Everything has been left as written. If any other misquotes are used, they will be edited – and the thread might be closed.

[Anonymous]

As I get older I realize there are few clear-cut answers and positions. What is right in one context, is wrong in another. I really like Heber’s avatar with his truth analogy described. I thought you were simply a fan of Pink Floyd Heber — now I see what you mean, and I agree with it. I also believe that it’s human nature to want to simplify things to the point of black and white. It helps us feel as though we have unraveled the Gordian Knot of life, which is complex and often seems to defy universal rules. Simplicity is comforting.

As one wise person told me — with truth, you start out black and white, but as you try to apply the black and white principles, you realize it there is a lot of gray.

[Anonymous]

I also though Heber’s picture was the album of Pink Floyd’s “Dark Side of the Moon” but he corrected me. I am a BIG Pink Floyd fan.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I really like Heber’s avatar with his truth analogy described. I thought you were simply a fan of Pink Floyd Heber — now I see what you mean, and I agree with it.

Oh…in all seriousness…I’m a HUGE Pink Floyd fan, and Star Wars fan.

Quote:

Pink Floyd’s 1973 album, Dark Side of the Moon, is arguably one of the best albums in rock history, selling over 35 million copies worldwide. Dark Side of the Moon marks the first time in Pink Floyd’s career in which bassist Roger Waters wrote all of the album’s lyrics. “The concept was originally about the pressures of modern life – travel, money and so on,” drummer Nick Mason has said, “but then Roger turned it into a meditation on insanity.”

But my avatar never was not inspired by the rock band. Just the prism analogy of perceiving one truth. Back in 2009, those were my fixated thoughts.

Could be interesting to start a Pink Floyd thread sometime, and analyze those lyrics. :ugeek:

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