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Minyan Man wrote:
The WoW is a great teaching. It is unique to other religions & faith. In many ways, it was ahead of its time.
Maybe. I think I agree with your point that there is good things about it, so I don’t campaign against it like it is false, but…just that it seems over emphasized and archaic. I probably see it more archaic than ahead of its time. Probably part of restorationist thinking of bringing back old time ideas applied to new world (1800s) items.
Quote:Coffee drinking was prohibited by jurists and scholars (ulema) meeting in Mecca in 1511 as haraam, but the subject of whether it was intoxicating was hotly debated over the next 30 years until the ban was finally overturned in the mid-16th century.[196] Use in religious rites among the Sufi branch of Islam led to coffee’s being put on trial in Mecca: it was accused of being a heretical substance, and its production and consumption were briefly repressed. It was later prohibited in Ottoman Turkey under an edict by the Sultan Murad IV.[197]
Coffee, regarded as a Muslim drink, was prohibited by Ethiopian Orthodox Christians until as late as 1889; it is now considered a national drink of Ethiopia for people of all faiths. Its early association in Europe with rebellious political activities led to Charles II outlawing coffeehouses from January 1676 (although the uproar created forced the monarch to back down two days before the ban was due to come into force).[30] Frederick the Great banned it in Prussia in 1777 for nationalistic and economic reasons; concerned about the price of import, he sought to force the public back to consuming beer.[198] Lacking coffee-producing colonies, Prussia had to import all its coffee at a great cost.[199]
A contemporary example of religious prohibition of coffee can be found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.[200] The organization holds that it is both physically and spiritually unhealthy to consume coffee.[201] This comes from the Mormon doctrine of health, given in 1833 by founder Joseph Smith in a revelation called the Word of Wisdom. It does not identify coffee by name, but includes the statement that “hot drinks are not for the belly,” which has been interpreted to forbid both coffee and tea.[201]
Quite a number of members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church also avoid caffeinated drinks. In its teachings, the Church encourages members to avoid tea, coffee, and other stimulants. Abstinence from coffee, tobacco, and alcohol by many Adventists has afforded a near-unique opportunity for studies to be conducted within that population group on the health effects of coffee drinking, free from confounding factors.
-wikipedia article on coffee
More important to today’s society is the health lessons and taking care of our bodies, avoiding obesity and stuff like that…which, is interesting we still focus on coffee and tea instead of more relevant things. I agree with LH
Quote:I do find it odd how many members are hard-nosed on (parts of) the WOW, but discount modern science. I am not talking about the latest fad diet. But it is clear that regular exercise (even just walking a few miles a day), not over-eating all the time,
Ann wrote:no Starbucks hot chocolate because what could people think when they see that cup.
Reminds me of my story I’ve shared before about on my mission the AP warning me against buying coffee cake for that same reason
🙄 Silly mormons.Ann I second this Quote:I say that, but I don’t discount the huge blessing the Word of Wisdom has been in my life. My convert parents are children of severe alcoholics and their abstinence broke the cycle. (For me. Some siblings still chose to drink.)
My grandfather wasn’t an active member. Alcoholism bit him in the beginning (it was a family trait) but he broke it through abstinence and it is powerful to watch.
Heber-
Quote:Reminds me of my story I’ve shared before about on my mission the AP warning me against buying coffee cake for that same reason
🙄 Silly mormons.My mother in law used to call it Postum cake so no one would get confused. Why? Neither ingredient exists in the cake but it was necessary.
🙄 🙄 Old Timer wrote:That verse about avoiding the appearance of evil is one of the most misapplied verses in our entire scriptural canon.
I might write a post about it – since I’ve written about practically everything else.
😆 I would be interested in such a post.
Heber13 wrote:Maybe. I think I agree with your point that there is good things about it, so I don’t campaign against it like it is false, but…just that it seems over emphasized and archaic. I probably see it more archaic than ahead of its time. Probably part of restorationist thinking of bringing back old time ideas applied to new world (1800s) items.
I agree that is was firmly mired in the temperance movement of the time. E.G. White, the founder of what is now the Seventh Day Adventists and regarded as a prophet, had a similar revelation 15 years after the WoW.
Quote:According to James White, in 1848 Mrs. White received instruction in vision, warning us against tobacco, tea, and coffee.
In reading her accounts much evil is ascribed to these substances.
Quote:The after-effect is prostration, not only mental and physical, but moral. As a result we see nervous men and women, of unsound judgment and unbalanced mind. They often manifest a hasty, impatient, accusing spirit, viewing the faults of others as through a magnifying glass, and utterly unable to discern their own defects.
Quote:God has written His law upon every nerve and muscle, every fiber and function of the human body. The indulgence of unnatural appetite, whether for tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin. . . . The eating of food that does not make good blood is working against the laws of our physical organism, and is a violation of the law of God. The cause produces the effect. Suffering, disease, and death are the sure penalty of indulgence.– Letter 123, 1899. {Ev 265, 266}
Quote:“Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, an injurious indulgence, which like other evils, injures the soul.” — Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 425, written in 1896.
I understand what you’re saying about abstinence regarding alcohol & alcoholism. I do not consider myself an expert on the topic.
It is my understanding that alcoholism is a genetic disease that can be passed on to the next generation.
This is even when the parents completely abstain. Abstinence does not change the genetic component to the disease.
The disease of Alcoholism will lay dormant and then triggered with the first drink.
I have a friend that told me that she relapsed by eating a meal where alcohol was used in a sauce that the meal was cooked in.
FWIW
Minyan Quote:It is my understanding that alcoholism is a genetic disease that can be passed on to the next generation.
This is even when the parents completely abstain. Abstinence does not change the genetic component to the disease.
The disease of Alcoholism will lay dormant and then triggered with the first drink.
I have a friend that told me that she relapsed by eating a meal where alcohol was used in a sauce that the meal was cooked in.
I have heard the same thing at AA meetings. Since it does run in my family I am a huge opponent to alcohol. I don’t know if it has a proven science behind it but I figure I have no need to find out. I have watched people wage war, and win, but still have war with alcohol. I just figure I won’t start.
Minyan Man wrote:I understand what you’re saying about abstinence regarding alcohol & alcoholism.
I do not consider myself an expert on the topic.
It is my understanding that alcoholism is a genetic disease that can be passed on to the next generation.
This is even when the parents completely abstain. Abstinence does not change the genetic component to the disease.
The disease of Alcoholism will lay dormant and then triggered with the first drink.
I have a friend that told me that she relapsed by eating a meal where alcohol was used in a sauce that the meal was cooked in.
FWIW
Do you think that means those without the gene and don’t have the disease are not really at risk with alcohol? I’m just curious. Perhaps it is not a big deal for some people, and disastrous for others, so it is just easiest to have everyone in the congregation abstain…even if not everyone is affected by it.That might fit in with the following line of the revelation. Quote:Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints
If some among the saints have a genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse then perhaps the blanket prohibition was intended for their benefit.
Heber13 wrote:
Do you think that means those without the gene and don’t have the disease are not really at risk with alcohol? I’m just curious. Perhaps it is not a big deal for some people, and disastrous for others, so it is just easiest to have everyone in the congregation abstain…even if not everyone is affected by it.Like I said earlier, I am not an expert on alcoholism. I can only talk from my own experiences. Since I am an alcoholic, I had talks with my children about it.
My BIL is also a recovering alcoholic. He & my Sister had the same talks with their children. Because of the talks & the fact that they lived through the
worse of it, none of them drink today.
Heber13, I know people who drink responsibly & don’t run into trouble. I know people who limit what the drink to 2 & stop. I never understood why they
would want to do that. Or, how they could do that. I don’t believe that there is a genetic test that they can do yet. The best way is to review your Family
History & see if there is anything that points to alcoholism. This is one area I see real wisdom in the WoW. If you don’t start, there is no problem.
Minyan Man wrote:If you don’t start, there is no problem.
Yes. This is wisdom. It’s not just the easiest way to avoid devastating problems, it is practical and rational.Roy wrote:Old Timer wrote:That verse about avoiding the appearance of evil is one of the most misapplied verses in our entire scriptural canon.
I might write a post about it – since I’ve written about practically everything else.
😆 I would be interested in such a post.
Me, too.
I think the key to that verse is whether we place more emphasis on internal or external judgments. External: Avoid doing anything that will make other people believe I’m sinning.
Internal: Avoid doing anything that I believe to be a sin.
If you look at the various translations for that verse, nearly all of them seem to indicate an internal focus. They typically use the word “kind” in place of “appearance.” Reject every kind of evil. Comparatively few translations stick with the word “appearance.”
The preceding verse also provides context. KJV: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Then we’ve inserted this big verse number in the way that broke up the complete thought. Prove all things (make an internal judgment); hold fast to that which is good, abstain from that which is bad.
If you really want to go overboard to make a point, what if we applied our teachings about the word “appearance” to doing good? It doesn’t really matter whether you are doing good or not, just make sure it
lookslike you’re doing good to other people. The concept begins to break down. I know of a past SP that wouldn’t allow his kids to drink sprite from a “coca-cola” paper cup. One time he was all but forced to allow it, so he made the family go “hide” while they did it! Crazy! LookingHard wrote:I know of a past SP that wouldn’t allow his kids to drink sprite from a “coca-cola” paper cup. One time he was all but forced to allow it, so he made the family go “hide” while they did it! Crazy!
I think that is part of the passive aggressive culture of “nice” mormons who would rather just go hide to drink something that isn’t a sin, than to confront people who judge wrongly that there is a sin.It is easier for leaders to tell the nice faithful member to just avoid the appearance so it avoids a situation, because most are willing to support the leader that way. But long term, the leader is better off educating members on what things are real issues to worry about and what aren’t.
I think we’ve progressed past coke cups even being an issue anymore. Another passive aggressive approach…just wait long enough and issues resolve themselves. Right?
Heber13 wrote:LookingHard wrote:I know of a past SP that wouldn’t allow his kids to drink sprite from a “coca-cola” paper cup. One time he was all but forced to allow it, so he made the family go “hide” while they did it! Crazy!
I think that is part of the passive aggressive culture of “nice” mormons who would rather just go hide to drink something that isn’t a sin, than to confront people who judge wrongly that there is a sin.
I think it shows just how much the SP judged others on such trivial matters.Heber13 wrote:I think we’ve progressed past coke cups even being an issue anymore. Another passive aggressive approach…just wait long enough and issues resolve themselves. Right?
As the economist John Maynard Keynes said, “In the long run we are all dead.”Roy wrote:That might fit in with the following line of the revelation.
Quote:Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints
If some among the saints have a genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse then perhaps the blanket prohibition was intended for their benefit.
I think this is the reasoning for the WoW although there is clearly benefit to following it. In fact, I think it’s the reasoning a decent amount of the rules/commandments we have in the church. They are blanket statements that are in place to protect the minority who would otherwise be addicted or not able to control there actions. Whether that is WoW, gambling, pornography or whatever it may be. It’s obvious that all those things can, and will, destroy people and their families but it’s not the norm.
Before I get to my next statement I’ll say that personally I have no desire to do anything contrary to the WoW. I think alcohol and coffee are gross so I guess that makes it easy for me. I also don’t like putting things into my body that are potentially harmful, addictive or that alter my state of mind. So I follow the WoW but it’s not necessarily solely because of what the church teaches. I just think it’s a good way to live.
However, the key is moderation. I don’t see a problem with alcohol,coffee,etc really as long as it’s just a drink here or there, same goes with gambling if that’s your thing. The problem is that there are those who are predisposed to become addicted to those things and others that we are taught to stay away from. So instead of having some people struggle with it we are just taught to stay away from it and for those people it’s a huge blessing and they might never find out they are potential alcoholics or gambling addicts.
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