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Saw this quote given in, of all places, a book about serial killers and the Mormon Mafia, a set of Mormon FBI agents nicknamed by that name. The author indicated one of the agents had the subject line of this thread on his desk or wall. Got me thinking of how harsh that statement is. How damaging to self-esteem. I have two children. One turned out to be a model person — married in the temple, a good kid and young adult. The other is good hearted, but not at all interested in church. I haven ‘t invested as much in my second one as my first, partly because he is resistant to good things I would like to do with him, and refuses to do things. I offer to do things all the time but he refuses.
But to then say that all the other achievements in my life can’t somehow compensate for my loss of happiness in seeing my second child not meet the full potential I would like to see, is rather punitive and destructive. I know what the quote is getting at — don’t let your job or other interests eclipse your goal of a successful home. But what about those times when you try your best and the home still isn’t successful? What do you have to fall back on?
Perhaps we need to define what “success in the home is”. What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
Yep. About the equivalent of Bednar a year or so ago strongly implying that if parents would have kept the Sabbath better that it would have kept some kids from falling away from the church. BS! Allegedly God could only get 2/3 of his children to follow him. Wouldn’t it be a bit presumptuous to think we are going to do all that much better than God? And I hope it is not inappropriate to share one of my favorite jokes that the quote in the subject always brings to my mind.
I had some sheetrock torn out of some of my walls for a few days. I took that opportunity to run some speaker wire for surround sound. As I was running the wire in my walls I thought I had better really be careful as I remember the quote, ““The most important of the work you will ever do will be within the walls of your own homes.”
“The greatest work” quote is one I believe – but it can be used horribly. “No success can compensate” quote, on the other hand . . .
I understand the intent (to motivate people to focus primarily on their families and not other things over their families, like careers), but it is a bludgeon used by the fortunate on those who feel they have failed in their homes and, therefore, nothing else matters. I wouldn’t shed a tear if it disappeared completely.
I still remember when my son refused the priesthood at 12 years of age. We mentioned it to the YM president and his counselor who said “it depends in FHE and Scripture Reading and Prayer is happening in your home”. Well, it wasn’t happening, but it wasn’t my fault either. Wife refused to do it, I tried, but the kids said we can’t do it Mommy isn’t there. I had to give up due to no support from anyone. I felt incensed at the accusation that it was all our doing even after I’d tried. So, I then mentioned my daughter, and said “if that theory is true, then why is my daughter firing on all cylinders????”. The YM president then agreed my daughter was on top of it all. I think it made them think’
Then, fast forward 2 years. We get a new Bishop who sees my son is unordained. He talks to us all, and my son agrees to receive the priesthood. Why was he so reluctant previously? He finally told my wife that its because he wears a diabetes pump and didnt’ like the self-consciousness of everyone seeing it as he passed the Sacrament as a deacon. We told him he didn’t have to pass, and he agreed without hestitation to be ordained a teacher.
But see how quick the members were to blame us as parents for his reluctance? Very destructive. There are times the church hurts more than it helps.
SilentDawning wrote:
But see how quick the members were to blame us as parents for his reluctance? Very destructive. There are times the church hurts more than it helps.
This is off topic but semi-related to what you said in the quote above. This article floated across social media a few days ago. I don’t believe the author is affiliated with the LDS church, I think this phenomenon exists across nearly every religion:
https://contendfortruth.com/2016/07/04/how-skipping-church-affects-our-children/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://contendfortruth.com/2016/07/04/how-skipping-church-affects-our-children/ Quote:In a Q&A, Carl Trueman was asked about why churches today are losing their young people. Typical answers to this question range from things like the temptations of this world or the irrelevance of the church–your typical answers. But Trueman makes a keen and convicting connection between our parenting and apostasy.
“The church is losing its young people because the parents never taught their children that it was important. I think that applies across the board. It applies to family worship, and it also applies to whether you are in church every Sunday and what priority you demonstrate to your children church has on a Sunday. If the sun shines out and their friends are going to the beach, do you decide to skip church and go to the beach? In which case, you send signals to your children that it is not important.” (Carl Trueman)
Another dig at the parents. There’s a lot of stuff in that article I take issue with. I link it here to show that it’s not just our church.
People want to find explanations for why things aren’t going well in their lives so they can produce more favorable outcomes. I think human nature is such that people will favor explanations for things that don’t implicate themselves as being a part of the problem. People looking out for the church might approach the problem with a finger pointed towards the parents, the parents didn’t do enough. The parents might approach the problem with a finger pointed towards the church, the church isn’t relevant to my child’s needs.
In my area there’s a very strong push to solve the youth activation rate problem. The problem always comes down to something lacking in the parent or child. As a church we don’t do a good job of listening to our youth; it’s far easier to tell them what we think their problem is and we probably get too defensive if they suggest that we make changes.
I think it’s something that can apply in some situations… But even still, I don’t believe it for a second. They may be the minority, but there are loads of people who become great despite their upbringing. To see it weaponized like this is even more appalling.
My mom frequently blames herself for how my sister turned out because she had to start working and I consistently have to remind her that it isn’t her fault and that it was my sister’s choices. I tell her that I benefited greatly from having to become independent younger and that having her work has brought out some of the best in me.
I think the reason so many young people are leaving the church is because there is a cultural disconnect between the old and the young. The young feel marginalized and ignored and get advice that just isn’t as helpful as it would have been 30-40 years ago. They’ve often been put in situations where home made it seem as if there was no choice but church, but the world around them does not feel the same way. You can’t shelter kids like you used to; the internet just makes that too difficult. And if you do, you may just be setting them up for failure to not be able to resist temptation when they are out of the house because it’s a new thing.
The correlation between home success and life success is not as black and white as this quote.
SilentDawning wrote:
Perhaps we need to define what “success in the home is”. What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
I think the great pitfall here is giving the church the power to define what a “successful” home is. The standard definition of church attendance, temple recommends, missions, etc relies on external benchmarks for a very internal, individual processes
irregardless of circumstances. The older I get, the more I define “success” as being able to successfully navigate through difficult decisions and continuing to grow. I don’t have a definition for “success inside the home” yet – but I am pretty sure it involves raising a thoughtful child into an adult who can figure out how to cope with life’s upcoming challenges and has given thought to what she believes. I am only 8 years into this parenting thing, so I’ve got time to figure how how to judge it.
I think as parents we are like the gardener in Jacob 5. We do stuff to raise our kids – pruning, environment placement, work on various principles, graft in specific influences, but at the end of the day, we often ask “What else could I have done?”. I feel that if we have done what we can, and have adapted over time working with our children, then we can take the situation for what is worth, consider that story as written so far, and count our other successes as well.
While we often refer to that quote as regarding our children, I think it applies to marriages as well. In fact, I think it applies more strongly to marriages now as I get older. We always have a choice whether to give up, move on, or work to improve our marriages.
AmyJ wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
Perhaps we need to define what “success in the home is”. What is it, and can this quote be considered somewhat harsh and destructive?
I think the great pitfall here is giving the church the power to define what a “successful” home is. The standard definition of church attendance, temple recommends, missions, etc relies on external benchmarks for a very internal, individual process
irregardless of circumstances.
:clap: This.
Our church believes in self determination / internal locus of control and the just world hypothesis. I believe that some for whom these concepts do not work as well will feel marginalized and many will go inactive or leave the church that is not speaking to their particular life experiences.
I believe that some for whom these concepts do work well may rise to positions of leadership. As leaders it is your job to teach the church doctrine. If your personal experience supports the doctrine then it can be used as “faith promoting”. If your personal experience does not support the doctrine then it is encouraged to be put on a shelf … as an honest question that will be answered someday, if you remain faithful and endure to the end.
Therefore the stuff we hear from leadership tends to perpetuate these ideas.
Because we (as humans) like to maintain our internal locus of control/Just world assumptive reality we can be quick to find fault with people who did not get the desired results. “They must have done it wrong. I will do it better and ensure my desired result.”
In parenting there is already anxiety and hand-wringing about doing it right and doing right by your kids. The LDS program seems to offer a near guarantee of positive results – if you follow the formula closely.
Once again it works great for certain people in certain circumstances and not as well for other people in other circumstances. Those it works for will thrive and may be promoted. Those it does not work as well for will sit in the pews with “questions” and may stop going entirely.
Also, this quote is not nearly as hard edged as the “No empty chairs” idea. I was married in the temple. 4 children from that marriage.
23 years of marriage. Circumstances as they were, the toxic home situation was not good to keep the marriage together.
My ex-wife filed divorce papers against me. She was mentally unstable.
I’m remarried, my wife has 4 kids.
Between us we have 4 married in the temple, 1 on a mission, 1 in university, 2 attending seminary with straight As in high school.
Looking forward to the holidays with a full house with tons of laughter.
So…do we define my home as a failure or a success??
At one point…there were failures. As life plays out…those turn into successes…greater happiness than we thought possible. Healthy kids growing up with good values and good direction in their lives. Who knows…there may be failures ahead of us we must face again.
We are in the middle of our existence…very difficult to pinpoint what “success” or “failure” applies to when existence is eternal.
This quote SD brings up was one very damaging to my psychie as I went through the down times.
At some point…I had to forget about quotes or what others thought or said about definitive statements on success or failure and take it in context of the point or message they are sending.
I have to be a cafeteria person and use my judgment to apply which quotes apply to which circumstances when discussing which principles of truth. That is how to develop wisdom.
Once I understood that point…I returned to mormonism with that view that all things, all teachings, all scripture, all symbolism, all ordinances, all quotes by prophets…are to be put in context of truth. And we let go of the rest, and don’t try to force square pegs into round holes…but just don’t use the ones that don’t fit. Things Joseph Smith said or did or BY or other prophets…they all had a time and place or application for something. Right or wrong. They were.
The teachings are simply useful to our lives to bring us love and peace, or they are not. Paradox is there…where some are true to some and false to others at the same time. We choose what we hold on to. We choose how we define success. Doesn’t matter if others choose differently. We can’t escape the experiences we face in life, as we navigate through life. Enjoy the ride!
Heber13 wrote:
So…do we define my home as a failure or a success??
I went through this with my 8 year old daughter recently. She has relapsed into behaviors that are not acceptable in her peer group. Not only that, but she has been very public about it, causing potential shameful situations for our family. These public behaviors will also be the source of much teasing once her peer group realizes what is going on and targets her – it’s only a matter of time. We are trying not to look at these behaviors as failures on behalf of our family – it’s not that “we didn’t teach her not to do these things” – it’s just one of her personal challenges right now.
Heber13 wrote:
At one point…there were failures. As life plays out…those turn into successes…greater happiness than we thought possible. Healthy kids growing up with good values and good direction in their lives. Who knows…there may be failures ahead of us we must face again.We are in the middle of our existence…very difficult to pinpoint what “success” or “failure” applies to when existence is eternal.
This…
Heber13 wrote:
At some point…I had to forget about quotes or what others thought or said about definitive statements on success or failure and take it in context of the point or message they are sending.I have to be a cafeteria person and use my judgment to apply which quotes apply to which circumstances when discussing which principles of truth. That is how to develop wisdom.
This…
Heber13 wrote:
Once I understood that point…I returned to mormonism with that view that all things, all teachings, all scripture, all symbolism, all ordinances, all quotes by prophets…are to be put in context of truth. And we let go of the rest, and don’t try to force square pegs into round holes…but just don’t use the ones that don’t fit. Things Joseph Smith said or did or BY or other prophets…they all had a time and place or application for something. Right or wrong. They were.The teachings are simply useful to our lives to bring us love and peace, or they are not. Paradox is there…where some are true to some and false to others at the same time. We choose what we hold on to. We choose how we define success. Doesn’t matter if others choose differently. We can’t escape the experiences we face in life, as we navigate through life. Enjoy the ride!
This is what I am currently working on. Figuring out what I believe, and what is important in my life right now.
AmyJ wrote:
This is what I am currently working on. Figuring out what I believe, and what is important in my life right now
:thumbup: I honestly feel like that is what God wants us to do, or he would have been a lot more specific in the scriptures.Those that get inspired write books, and share their views…and others take those books, tweak them and write their own books. More and more books. More and more quotes. More and more framing things from different points of view. All trying to express the feelings we experience.
But ultimately, it becomes our own experience that is most important. Success is what
weneed. As Joseph Campbell wrote:
Quote:People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonance within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive. That’s what it’s all finally about.
Of course, that is just one more quote that might apply to some, but not resonate with others, depending on personal location.
Roy wrote:
Because we (as humans) like to maintain our internal locus of control/Just world assumptive reality we can be quick to find fault with people who did not get the desired results. “They must have done it wrong. I will do it better and ensure my desired result.”
When I began to let go of the idea that I am in control of the outcome of my life, I began to be a lot happier. Life sucks and we really have very little control over it. We can change things here and there, but mostly in ourselves and somewhat in our immediate spheres of influence.I think this mechanism is the same one that empowers people when they turn their will over to God. It makes them happy not because God is now in charge, but because they are no longer trying to control the uncontrollable. Sure, God might have something to do with it as well, but given that I don’t believe he intervenes much, it’s a lot more consistent with my faith paradigm.
Like most things in the Church, this quote is given as a preventative measure. Unfortunately, it gives little or no recourse for those who “fail”. One part I agree with. I don’t buy into the “point system”. Doing good doesn’t cancel out the bad, and doing bad doesn’t cancel out the good. What the quote fails in, is the narrowness of its focus. I’d rephrase it, “No success can compensate for failure. No failure can cover up success.”
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