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“I was raised Latter Day Saint and I remember speaking to my Young Women’s leader and we were talking about the importance of tithe — the 10% of your paycheck you are supposed to give to the church. I’ll never forget when she told me, ‘God will forgive you for murder. He won’t forgive you for not paying tithe.'”
This is one woman’s personal experience. Assuming that she remembered the YW leader’s words correctly, what might lead a church member to say something like that? I suppose it is good that someone can be forgiven for murder. Why would anyone think that non-tithing wouldn’t be much more trivial and easy to forgive?
This works if the YW leader was talking about “tithing” as a proxy variable for “institutional loyalty”. Especially in the story of Nephi and Laban was “loyalty to God [and God’s causes]” more important than “murder”. I don’t doubt that was her experience but it certainly wasn’t mine. I’d chalk it up to a teacher using hyperbole to drive home the importance of obedience to a particular principle and being oblivious to how their words were internalized by others.
Right. I was trying to figure this one out.
I have heard that tithing is one of the only commandments where we can be mathematically perfect. I suppose, if you are into that kinds thing.
I have heard that not paying tithing is a canary in a coal mine indicator for losing testimony. I suppose that has some truth to it. Although, it is probably the change in testimony that precedes the discontinuation of tithing and not the discontinuation of tithing that leads to the loss of testimony.
I was also thinking that maybe the teacher was extrapolating from the “You have robbed me” scripture in Malachi and trying to say that most sins are against our fellow humans, but non-tithing is a sin against God.
However, in the end I think it must have just been hyperbole for dramatic effect.
I have to say that I have never heard that the idea of not paying tithing as unforgivable before, so that it interesting. I honestly wonder about the source and how active and involved the individual was to begin with. And sometimes those with an ax to grind have been known to exaggerate a bit – but it seems there are many more things that could have been exaggerated (and some don’t need much stretching to be credible). The only things I have ever heard taught as unforgivable are murder and sin against the Holy Ghost, the latter of which is apparently next to impossible. My universalist side tells me nothing is unforgivable. It could also be as simple as someone repeating something that they had been taught. I think that’s how I got the explicit tithing on gross lessons in my area. Once upon a time tithing on gross was the official policy (1960s) and those were the lessons I received. I’d even venture to say that if someone were to correct the teaching with a, “The actual policy is that it’s between the individual and the Lord.” that others would be quick to supply, “Yeah, but do you want gross blessings or net blessings?” or some other comment aimed at not letting people get off the tithing on gross path. That’s just the way it was when I was taught the principle.
As you say DJ, the scriptures are clear (but not really clear) that the only unpardonable sin is denying the HG. I say it’s not very clear because I don’t think anyone can definitively say what denying the HG actually consists of. Probably something more serious than not giving the HG its cut of the proceeds.
On a related topic, I take as my default now that “we don’t understand scriptures” and/or “messages from God” as an absolute truth you can “take to the bank” rather then the faith-promoting, “We are imperfect and are probably missing a few things”. We know that words matter. In a sense, the church is “selling” that it has the most “words from God” correct because of prophets and additional scriptures as the foundation to build a life upon.
I don’t necessarily buy this, but assuming that for the sake of the argument that the church “has most of the words correct from God”, I am on the side that we are missing some commas and related grammar points to fully convey the meaning God intended for us.https://digitalsynopsis.com/tools/punctuation-marks-importance-rules-usage/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://digitalsynopsis.com/tools/punctuation-marks-importance-rules-usage/ While the LDS church “suffers” the most from the grammatical situation with very large truth claims, anyone who claims to speak for God (written or unwritten, official channels or not) has that same scenario, in my mind.
AmyJ wrote:
On a related topic, I take as my default now that “we don’t understand scriptures” and/or “messages from God” as an absolute truth you can “take to the bank” rather then the faith-promoting, “We are imperfect and are probably missing a few things”.We know that words matter. In a sense, the church is “selling” that it has the most “words from God” correct because of prophets and additional scriptures as the foundation to build a life upon.
I don’t necessarily buy this, but assuming that for the sake of the argument that the church “has most of the words correct from God”, I am on the side that we are missing some commas and related grammar points to fully convey the meaning God intended for us.https://digitalsynopsis.com/tools/punctuation-marks-importance-rules-usage/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://digitalsynopsis.com/tools/punctuation-marks-importance-rules-usage/ While the LDS church “suffers” the most from the grammatical situation with very large truth claims, anyone who claims to speak for God (written or unwritten, official channels or not) has that same scenario, in my mind.
Yes, indeed Amy, we all see through that same glass (or similar glasses) darkly. And I agree that perhaps we are missing some things here and there but most leaders and true believers won’t (or can’t) admit that.
I think this is an interesting little thing I came across a few years back. I have a commentary edition of the Book of Mormon that I can’t put my fingers on at the moment (it’s around here somewhere). The first line of First Nephi that we all know so well has a footnote for the word “goodly” which simply says “or Godly.” Wow. So what if the infamous Book of Mormon typesetter (credited for adding most if not all punctuation and making other corrections such as spelling) couldn’t read Godly because of a smudge or unclear handwriting or just thought the writer meant goodly and not Godly? Or maybe he made an error and added an extra o and nobody caught it. But the real wow factor for me was that Godly actually makes some sense, more than goodly (a word I have only ever seen there). It’s just one letter of a word, but could make a world of difference in how we understand what was meant.
Dogma =
Quote:a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
Quote:any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty.
The premise of unforgivable non-tithing is certainly not part of our beliefs. However, we do have our own share of dogma.The teachers comment reminds me of the fact that tithing has its own sit down meeting with the Bishop. Its not enough that it is part of temple recommend interviews…no…such importance is attached to it we dedicate part of the fall season to it as a formal meeting. That always seemed ego centric to the church to me. I am glad they changed the name of it to Tithing Declaration from tithing settlement as the “settlement” moniker always implied that receipt of tithing is a right of the church and not a voluntary payment for which the church should be grateful.
DarkJedi wrote:
Yes, indeed Amy, we all see through that same glass (or similar glasses) darkly. And I agree that perhaps we are missing some things here and there but most leaders and true believers won’t (or can’t) admit that.
I see it as “we are missing
mostthings” with profound consequences. If “what we know” was a third grade spelling test we were collectively taking, I would put our accuracy at about 2-5% out of the 100% possible.
And if the test becomes “a group project” where we can compare and change our answers, I just don’t see us as a group getting over 40% accuracy [that is also a big “if” because groupwork on a church level becomes organization work and competing groups shouting at each other].
As a church, and as a group of humans, we “shrug it off” as “we are missing a few things” (like we are at the 95% accuracy mark). We are not as a default comfortable with how little we “know” and how much we “guess/hope/surmise”.
DarkJedi wrote:
I think this is an interesting little thing I came across a few years back. I have a commentary edition of the Book of Mormon that I can’t put my fingers on at the moment (it’s around here somewhere). The first line of First Nephi that we all know so well has a footnote for the word “goodly” which simply says “or Godly.” Wow. So what if the infamous Book of Mormon typesetter (credited for adding most if not all punctuation and making other corrections such as spelling) couldn’t read Godly because of a smudge or unclear handwriting or just thought the writer meant goodly and not Godly? Or maybe he made an error and added an extra o and nobody caught it. But the real wow factor for me was that Godly actually makes some sense, more than goodly (a word I have only ever seen there). It’s just one letter of a word, but could make a world of difference in how we understand what was meant.
That is a good tidbit to know – thanks!
I think the role that tithing settlement/declaration has played has morphed over the years. Maybe when it started it was once a year at the end of the year because that’s when subsistence farmers (or what have you) had a better idea of what their overages were so they could tithe on that. It would be difficult to pay tithing mid-year because you really didn’t know your future needs/yields. Maybe there’d be a drought or maybe bird flu would kill a lot of your chickens, so you really couldn’t commit in-kind donations regularly. Too many unknowns.
I could see tithing settlement/declaration at the end of the year as helpful to people that are self employed or own their own business. The same thought process from farmers applies there as well. It might be hard to pay regularly because you could incur an unexpected operating expense and suddenly that $10K profit turns into a $10K deficit. If you already paid the $1K in tithing immediately after realizing the profit and soon thereafter find yourself in the red, then what?
I’ve also heard a few other apologetics. Tithing settlement/declaration gives families an opportunity to make sure the church records are correct. I guess for tax and audit purposes. That’s less of a factor now as most people can donate online and also ensure their donations are accurate online and now that they’re doing it as early as September the accuracy for tax purposes falls a little flat.
I’ve also heard it’s a chance for the bishop to touch base with every family at least once a year. This apologetic doesn’t do much for me because there could be a policy to have a normal check-in meeting, no mention of tithing whatsoever. In fact, since the subject of the current meeting is tithing it may cause the people that aren’t paying tithing to avoid it altogether. Under the current system, the bishop probably isn’t meeting with everyone, he’s meeting with the people that are more likely to have paid their tithing.
I’m not saying anything new but call it settlement, call it declaration, it still feels manipulative to call in a family and put family members on the spot in front of everyone else in their family. I know the bishop doesn’t have time to chat with each member of the ward individually, that’s the reason they moved the meeting up to September, but I am saying that if families need a little face time with the bishop each year then the subject shouldn’t be tithing, it should be the family.
AmyJ wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Yes, indeed Amy, we all see through that same glass (or similar glasses) darkly. And I agree that perhaps we are missing some things here and there but most leaders and true believers won’t (or can’t) admit that.
I see it as “we are missing
mostthings” with profound consequences. If “what we know” was a third grade spelling test we were collectively taking, I would put our accuracy at about 2-5% out of the 100% possible.
And if the test becomes “a group project” where we can compare and change our answers, I just don’t see us as a group getting over 40% accuracy [that is also a big “if” because groupwork on a church level becomes organization work and competing groups shouting at each other].
As a church, and as a group of humans, we “shrug it off” as “we are missing a few things” (like we are at the 95% accuracy mark). We are not as a default comfortable with how little we “know” and how much we “guess/hope/surmise”.
Yeah, I was trying to be nebulous and nice. I agree we’re missing a lot, or in other words we don’t really have any more than what other Christians have (and some other Christians do better than we do). I do believe we have as core tenets the same core tenets as other Christians, and that’s important. The other “stuff” less so. But it’s hard for a church/people who have made a huge stand on being the one and only true church to really admit we’re not all that special and might even missing some things in the “fullness of the gospel” in the “fullness of time.”
Back to tithing, I have much more often (frequently) heard paying tithing is a way to gain blessings as opposed to a way to be punished by not paying. (IOW we’re blessed for paying, and if we don’t pay we’re not blessed – but not necessarily punished.) The true believers in paying on gross might even be inclined to assert they are more blessed than those who pay some lesser amount (being nice again, I have heard such people assert exactly that). The thing is, whenever I have asked anyone exactly how they are blessed by tithe paying I have never gotten a clear/straight answer. In my own mind I know why they can’t answer – living where I live it’s pretty hard to say you’re more blessed (or less blessed) than your heathen neighbors.
DarkJedi wrote:
Yeah, I was trying to be nebulous and nice. I agree we’re missing a lot, or in other words we don’t really have any more than what other Christians have (and some other Christians do better than we do). I do believe we have as core tenets the same core tenets as other Christians, and that’s important. The other “stuff” less so. But it’s hard for a church/people who have made a huge stand on being the one and only true church to really admit we’re not all that special and might even missing some things in the “fullness of the gospel” in the “fullness of time.”
If I could, I would give you brownie points for being “nebulous and nice”
I think I wind up putting the line in the sand down further in the “explicitly stated”/literal tendency then the average person.
I don’t do “nebulous” well. I don’t do “nice” well either.
Now, if you want a conversation with an empathetic, thoughtful (full of thoughts), cynical person with some hope and optimism – that’s me:)
DarkJedi wrote:
Back to tithing, I have much more often (frequently) heard paying tithing is a way to gain blessings as opposed to a way to be punished by not paying. (IOW we’re blessed for paying, and if we don’t pay we’re not blessed – but not necessarily punished.) The true believers in paying on gross might even be inclined to assert they are more blessed than those who pay some lesser amount (being nice again, I have heard such people assert exactly that). The thing is, whenever I have asked anyone exactly how they are blessed by tithe paying I have never gotten a clear/straight answer. In my own mind I know why they can’t answer – living where I live it’s pretty hard to say you’re more blessed (or less blessed) than your heathen neighbors.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that money being asked for by the church was either for a) expenses or b) sponsor projects designed to fulfill at least 1 need and increase the prestige of an organization (Malachi quote “Bring ye all the tithes to the storehouse” actually).
a) Thanks to a bunch of business leaders investing for over 50 years – there is money for expenses.
b) There are a lot of organizations that can use donations to sponsor improvements in their causes. There is a lot of charitable giving/non-profit bureaucracy growth and oversight out there. There is more government intervention and government-sponsored support cushions (like worker’s comp didn’t exist in the Bible). Oscar Wilde should be happy, “The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.”
WHEN “Tithing” becomes an arrangement between God and a human in the sense that the human will “give of their resources” to a cause (and God can bless that human), it’s a different amazing conversation about “Charity”, about “Loving Your Neighbor” (and the Jews have a more thought-out system we should be studying).
The problem is that “Church financial viability”, “Church sponsorship of causes/charities”, and “Charity towards others in our community through material goods” are not all “Tithing” though they get woven together in specific points of our doctrine and processes in our church administration.
Never heard it – or anything close to it. I really wish these sort of exceptions weren’t reported as fact, but I get it – and I don’t blame the person who said it or the reporter.
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