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On a related note, one of my daughters (who is not active) has a friend who grew up around and “with” some members who were . . . strictly, stronger than normal, orthodox. She has written a play about that experience that is representative of her experience but nowhere close to my daughter’s experience. When the group who are narrating the play gathered for the first time, she asked my daughter if her experience was the same, and my daughter was able to provide a different perspective. My daughter can understand the other perspective and value it, even though it was so different from her own. That same daughter was asked if she was kicked out of her home and shunned for her life choices and identification. She was able to explain that we are people like every other group, with different views and actions regarding the same things.
I sometimes wonder if there is truly an unforgivable sin. My conclusion is, that with G-d there is no unforgivable sin, however, with varying individuals there appear to be quite a vast array of unforgivable sins. Watcher wrote:
I sometimes wonder if there is truly an unforgivable sin. My conclusion is, that with G-d there is no unforgivable sin, however, with varying individuals there appear to be quite a vast array of unforgivable sins.
Agreed. I think the construct of some sins being more egregious than others comes from men, not God (and it appears to be more of an LDS thing than with other Christians, probably thanks to Alma). If God truly can’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, all sin would be just as unallowable. So the universalist in me believes all of us will be forgiven and all will be reunited with God (who says that is their work and glory). Also, I think that what we view as sin might not be the same as what God views as sin, and agree with Givens (in
All Things Newand other sources) on the matter. DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I sometimes wonder if there is truly an unforgivable sin. My conclusion is, that with G-d there is no unforgivable sin, however, with varying individuals there appear to be quite a vast array of unforgivable sins.
Agreed. I think the construct of some sins being more egregious than others comes from men, not God (and it appears to be more of an LDS thing than with other Christians, probably thanks to Alma). If God truly can’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, all sin would be just as unallowable. So the universalist in me believes all of us will be forgiven and all will be reunited with God (who says that is their work and glory). Also, I think that what we view as sin might not be the same as what God views as sin, and agree with Givens (in
All Things Newand other sources) on the matter.
I have discovered with my own sins – some are much more difficult to repent of and turn away from than others.Watcher wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I sometimes wonder if there is truly an unforgivable sin. My conclusion is, that with G-d there is no unforgivable sin, however, with varying individuals there appear to be quite a vast array of unforgivable sins.
Agreed. I think the construct of some sins being more egregious than others comes from men, not God (and it appears to be more of an LDS thing than with other Christians, probably thanks to Alma). If God truly can’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, all sin would be just as unallowable. So the universalist in me believes all of us will be forgiven and all will be reunited with God (who says that is their work and glory). Also, I think that what we view as sin might not be the same as what God views as sin, and agree with Givens (in
All Things Newand other sources) on the matter.
I have discovered with my own sins – some are much more difficult to repent of and turn away from than others.
That’s on you and your own perception and feelings of guilt. In the NT Jesus forgave (and/or healed) everyone who asked (and some who didn’t ask) immediately and without any requirements no matter how grievous the fault or infirmity. I firmly believe that’s the model.
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:Agreed. I think the construct of some sins being more egregious than others comes from men, not God (and it appears to be more of an LDS thing than with other Christians, probably thanks to Alma). If God truly can’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, all sin would be just as unallowable. So the universalist in me believes all of us will be forgiven and all will be reunited with God (who says that is their work and glory). Also, I think that what we view as sin might not be the same as what God views as sin, and agree with Givens (in
All Things Newand other sources) on the matter.
I have discovered with my own sins – some are much more difficult to repent of and turn away from than others.
That’s on you and your own perception and feelings of guilt. In the NT Jesus forgave (and/or healed) everyone who asked (and some who didn’t ask) immediately and without any requirements no matter how grievous the fault or infirmity. I firmly believe that’s the model.
Please pardon me if I ask too much. You have not experienced certain temptations to be more difficult for you to ignor than others?
As a teen I remember being surprised to hear that some people consider all sins to be equally disqualifying. I remember countering, “then what about the “deadly sins.” The person patiently explained that the deadly sins is a catholic concept but may not be accurate according to how God views sin. If there is no ranking of sins then all of us are equally unworthy and in need of the atonement.
In this perspective, there are sins that can be easier or more difficult to change/turn away from but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are different in God’s eyes.
Of course, this discussion really does hinge on what God says/rules/decides. There are scriptures that can be used to support both perspectives and I believe that it is impossible for us to prove one viewpoint over the other.
Watcher wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:I have discovered with my own sins – some are much more difficult to repent of and turn away from than others.
That’s on you and your own perception and feelings of guilt. In the NT Jesus forgave (and/or healed) everyone who asked (and some who didn’t ask) immediately and without any requirements no matter how grievous the fault or infirmity. I firmly believe that’s the model.
Please pardon me if I ask too much. You have not experienced certain temptations to be more difficult for you to ignor than others?
I thought we were talking about sin and repentance, shuv, metanoeo. But now that you mention it, I am very tempted by the razzleberry pie on the kitchen counter. I will probably succumb more than once today, and will likely add ice cream at least once.
What I was trying to say was church members and many other Christians have a misplaced sense of guilt, and we’ve managed to conflate repentance and penance. Penance is indeed part of the teachings of many Christian faiths, but not all. Repentance (shuv, metanoeo) and penance are not the same thing and if we look at the examples of Jesus forgiving and healing in the New Testament (and in 3 Nephi) we see that there is no penance involved in repentance and forgiveness/healing.
Pres. Nelson understands the concept of metanoeo and spoke about it directly once, but alludes to (and doesn’t talk about penance) relatively frequently (thus his station higher on my list of favorite living 15 apostles). In April 2019 Elder Nelson said the following:
Quote:Too many people consider repentance as punishment—something to be avoided except in the most serious circumstances. But this feeling of being penalized is engendered by Satan. He tries to block us from looking to Jesus Christ, who stands with open arms, hoping and willing to heal, forgive, cleanse, strengthen, purify, and sanctify us.
The word for repentance in the Greek New Testament is metanoeo. The prefix meta- means “change.” The suffix -noeo is related to Greek words that mean “mind,” “knowledge,” “spirit,” and “breath.”
Thus, when Jesus asks you and me to “repent,” He is inviting us to change our mind, our knowledge, our spirit—even the way we breathe. He is asking us to change the way we love, think, serve, spend our time, treat our wives, teach our children, and even care for our bodies.
Nothing is more liberating, more ennobling, or more crucial to our individual progression than is a regular, daily focus on repentance. Repentance is not an event; it is a process. It is the key to happiness and peace of mind. When coupled with faith, repentance opens our access to the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
He is not the only one to teach about the concept. Elder Theodore Burton of the Seventy also taught about it (as well as shuv) in a 1985 address at BYU.
Quote:When the New Testament was translated into Latin for the use of the common people who spoke that language, an unfortunate choice was made in translation. “Metaneoeo” was translated into the word “poenitere.” The root “poen” in that word is the same root found in our English words punish, penance, penitent, and repentance. So the beautiful meaning of Hebrew and Greek was changed in Latin to an ugly meaning involving hurting, punishing, whipping, cutting, mutilating, disfiguring, starving, or even torturing. Small wonder then that most people have come to fear and dread the word repentance which they were taught and now understand to mean repeated or neverending punishment. People must somehow be made to realize that the true meaning of repentance is that we do not require people to be punished or to punish themselves, but to change their lives so they can escape eternal punishment. If they have this understanding, it will relieve their anxiety and fears and become a welcome and treasured word in our religious vocabulary.
There are in addition other BYU talks and scholarly articles on the subject.
I think another issue many have is a misunderstanding of what constitutes sin as opposed to the mistakes and learning experiences we came here to experience, which is part of the plan – God expects us to do so (IOW, we can’t honestly think or believe God was surprised when their children messed up). I don’t think anybody explains this better than Fiona and Terryl Givens in
All Things New, Rethinking Sin, Salvation, and Everything in Between. It”s not a long read, and very worth it. The atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance (turning toward God, returning to God) are not the back up plan – they are the plan.
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:That’s on you and your own perception and feelings of guilt. In the NT Jesus forgave (and/or healed) everyone who asked (and some who didn’t ask) immediately and without any requirements no matter how grievous the fault or infirmity. I firmly believe that’s the model.
Please pardon me if I ask too much. You have not experienced certain temptations to be more difficult for you to ignor than others?
I thought we were talking about sin and repentance, shuv, metanoeo. But now that you mention it, I am very tempted by the razzleberry pie on the kitchen counter. I will probably succumb more than once today, and will likely add ice cream at least once.
What I was trying to say was church members and many other Christians have a misplaced sense of guilt, and we’ve managed to conflate repentance and penance. Penance is indeed part of the teachings of many Christian faiths, but not all. Repentance (shuv, metanoeo) and penance are not the same thing and if we look at the examples of Jesus forgiving and healing in the New Testament (and in 3 Nephi) we see that there is no penance involved in repentance and forgiveness/healing.
Pres. Nelson understands the concept of metanoeo and spoke about it directly once, but alludes to (and doesn’t talk about penance) relatively frequently (thus his station higher on my list of favorite living 15 apostles). In April 2019 Elder Nelson said the following:
Quote:Too many people consider repentance as punishment—something to be avoided except in the most serious circumstances. But this feeling of being penalized is engendered by Satan. He tries to block us from looking to Jesus Christ, who stands with open arms, hoping and willing to heal, forgive, cleanse, strengthen, purify, and sanctify us.
The word for repentance in the Greek New Testament is metanoeo. The prefix meta- means “change.” The suffix -noeo is related to Greek words that mean “mind,” “knowledge,” “spirit,” and “breath.”
Thus, when Jesus asks you and me to “repent,” He is inviting us to change our mind, our knowledge, our spirit—even the way we breathe. He is asking us to change the way we love, think, serve, spend our time, treat our wives, teach our children, and even care for our bodies.
Nothing is more liberating, more ennobling, or more crucial to our individual progression than is a regular, daily focus on repentance. Repentance is not an event; it is a process. It is the key to happiness and peace of mind. When coupled with faith, repentance opens our access to the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
He is not the only one to teach about the concept. Elder Theodore Burton of the Seventy also taught about it (as well as shuv) in a 1985 address at BYU.
Quote:When the New Testament was translated into Latin for the use of the common people who spoke that language, an unfortunate choice was made in translation. “Metaneoeo” was translated into the word “poenitere.” The root “poen” in that word is the same root found in our English words punish, penance, penitent, and repentance. So the beautiful meaning of Hebrew and Greek was changed in Latin to an ugly meaning involving hurting, punishing, whipping, cutting, mutilating, disfiguring, starving, or even torturing. Small wonder then that most people have come to fear and dread the word repentance which they were taught and now understand to mean repeated or neverending punishment. People must somehow be made to realize that the true meaning of repentance is that we do not require people to be punished or to punish themselves, but to change their lives so they can escape eternal punishment. If they have this understanding, it will relieve their anxiety and fears and become a welcome and treasured word in our religious vocabulary.
There are in addition other BYU talks and scholarly articles on the subject.
I think another issue many have is a misunderstanding of what constitutes sin as opposed to the mistakes and learning experiences we came here to experience, which is part of the plan – God expects us to do so (IOW, we can’t honestly think or believe God was surprised when their children messed up). I don’t think anybody explains this better than Fiona and Terryl Givens in
All Things New, Rethinking Sin, Salvation, and Everything in Between. It”s not a long read, and very worth it. The atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance (turning toward God, returning to God) are not the back up plan – they are the plan.
Thank you for your most kind and thoughtful response.I might add here that I believe this idea that repentance is a difficult thing requiring great effort and months or years to accomplish (depending on the “sin”) coupled with the idea that some sins must be confessed to the bishop is a great influence on why many younger (and some not so young) people leave the church. I equate it the time of Jesus when the Pharisees (and others) made living the religion so difficult that people had lost hope of being able to repent or atone. Hence the hope brought by Jesus who taught and demonstrated that it’s really not as difficult as it might seem. There are many active and inactive members of the church who believe repentance is not really possible for them, and God can’t possibly love or forgive them. Nothing is further from the truth. The 2nd Article of Faith says we aren’t punished for Adam’s transgression, which I see as the things we inherit through birth – which, biologically, includes pretty much everything except our spirits. In that construct, the only thing that matters is our effort – and even that is influenced by our mortal inheritance far more than we tend to realize. I believe culture gets in the way of our theology regularly – and that our core theology is astonishingly expansive and gracious. It rivals Buddhism in its universality and emphasis on having all eternity to progress to our ultimate state. I can’t see that, and I can’t say I know it, but it is the core of my faith (the things for which I hope but can’t see).
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