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In another forum that I post regularly on (actually, on an almost daily basis), a black LDS man is having a conversation with a white LDS man about the Priesthood ban. (And no, I’m not trying to change the subject here — honest.) The white man seems to be of the opinion that the Brethren simply cannot and do not make mistakes, and he is still trying to argue that the ban came about as the result of revelation and was in accordance with the Lord’s will all along. When the black man responded with some really excellent points that essentially proved the white man to be wrong, the white man said,”He [i.e. Brigham Young] was not perfect. He made mistakes. He had personal failings. But he never implemented world-wide policies that enforced his personal failings, because that is not something true prophets do. Are you advocating that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints fell into a period of Apostasy from approximately 1852-1978?” I loved the black man’s answer to him: “Things are not either black or white. We are not either in an Apostasy or in a state of perfect knowledge and understanding. There are degrees to everything. The degree to which the people live the gospel partly depends on the caliber of their leaders.Just because the church has never fallen into apostasy does not mean everything the church has done has been pleasing to the Lord. He is as patient with the Church as he is with all of us individually.“ I really, really liked that statement, i.e. “[The Lord] is as patient with the Church as he is with all of us individually.” I don’t personally believe the November 5 policy pertaining to LGBT couples and their children was revealed by the Lord, nor do I believe He is pleased with it. But I have to stay in the Church, despite my occasional disappointment with our leaders. Like Peter, if I left, where would I go? I just have to live my own life with integrity, and try to the best of my ability to not let my feelings of frustration with “the Church” to override my love for “the gospel.” I do believe that the what is right will ultimately prevail. It’s hard waiting for it to happen, but knowing that the Lord has all the patience we lack sometimes helps.
I like that, Katzpur. One thing I’m wondering about: it hasn’t even been a year. How many bishops have disciplined (for apostasy) sexually active/married gay members. How many just aren’t doing it?
Some have because we heard stories early on about couples who were shocked to be pursued by local leaders, but maybe many more are just being left alone. Is the church going to have some kind of overseeing organization that identifies all these people and urges, then ultimately forces, local disciplining of them? (And possibly the only way to force it would be to early-release bishops and call new ones more willing.) And if the church doesn’t reach down to the local level and ensure it’s happening, then what?
There is a good side to local leader roulette – and it is good more often than it is bad. We hear about the bad, because people don’t complain (or even post, generally) about the good. Old Timer wrote:There is a good side to local leader roulette – and it is good more often than it is bad. We hear about the bad, because people don’t complain (or even post, generally) about the good.
I think there is truth to this. I listened to a podcast where Gina Colvin mentioned after a blog she wrote strongly disagreeing with the excommunication of Kate Kelly, she received a LOT of communication from bishops saying, “I would have never done that.” I think that out of my last 3 bishop’s, I am fairly sure two of them wouldn’t have pulled the trigger and probably all 3 would have worked to reconcile harder. One of them I think would have had more fights with leadership than with Kate – possibly to the point of him being released.The question asked: Quote:How do you stay when you feel the church’s actions are immoral and reckless?
It is difficult sometimes. I try to hold onto the good things & leave the rest.
I hold on the the idea that I’m not always right. I give the opposition the opportunity to convince me.
When the opposing view is raised, I speak up either in public or in private.
If I left again, I would spend my time at the gym. Not spiritually fulfilling and no tension.
If I can find a position at church on any given Sunday where I’m alittle spiritually feed & a medium amount of tension, I call it a win.
I am a former Methodist. I went to church every Christmas eve & Easter. It was a large congregation & you didn’t know anyone.
The smallest LDS branch has a choir that can out sing the largest Methodist choir & congregation. For me, it just feels different.
This is a tough one because on one hand, I feel totally complicit like some bystander who does nothing when help is what is needed and required. The one thing that bothers me most is just how frightened members are of discussing anything related to “gay” and how obvious they are about fearing it. I can post any number of things on facebook about time I spend with my adult daughter who has rather severe disabilities. I’ll get “likes” from a couple dozen ward members (but then again, what isn’t there to love about my dear daughter who I take walking with me every morning?). Yet, I read this very moving blog post from Thomas Montgomery (
http://www.nomorestrangers.org/clarity/ ) and I post it on facebook while encouraging love toward others and the only people who like or comment are family members, one who happens to be my older sister with a gay son. I suppose at a minimum, those same ward members see I post stuff like this and know where I stand.In the end, I have settled on mom3’s approach. I want to be there to help and support. I hope I can present myself in some way that it will encourage the orthodox to think more about what pain they may be causing by throwing their weight behind this “revelation” while at the same time extending a hand to those who are hurting. Late last week I ordered some rainbow lapel pins and I hope they come soon so I can were one on my tie Sunday. I will simply wear one each week so that if gay ward members out there need help, they will know I am a safe person to approach.
People probably like the positive and uplifting things. Those are easy to like. But, I think one thing we’ve learned over the ages, is that it doesn’t help us to just ignore the difficult stuff. That may be exactly what needs to be said for some people to think about and process, even if they are unsure how to respond to it. You still wear that pin, and it can be a good thing for many. And a good thing for you.
Not to derail this thread, but I have had at least three Facebook conversations in the last few days about the Black Lives Matter movement and multiple issues surrounding it in which I have been able to help other people understand it better and stop seeing it from an extreme position. I can say the same thing, with more abundant examples, of conversations I have had with people about LGBTQ issues, generally, that had the same result.
If I am not having these conversations, they might not happen for these people.
I’m out. I can no longer trust the Brethren. Period. I have to protect myself. I’m sorry to hear that. The Church needs your voice. But, I understand completely. I wish for you, happiness & peace.
turinturambar wrote:I have to protect myself.
I wonder if this is ultimately what goes on with all of us. I might like to think of myself as very empathetic, as an advocate and supporter of those different from me. But in the end, I’m sort of protecting myself.Back when homosexual sex was assumed to be a sin, and I didn’t have to SAY the condemning words, I felt no particular pain. To be what the church wants me to be now, I have to flatly state something that hurts my integrity. But I did it for a few more years…until I couldn’t.
I find this interesting – as in unexpected. My experience is that MANY TBM’s are conflicted. What was expected that the part dealing with children was not so popular. http://religionnews.com/2016/10/28/most-mormons-approve-of-churchs-lgbt-exclusion-policy-study-shows/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://religionnews.com/2016/10/28/most-mormons-approve-of-churchs-lgbt-exclusion-policy-study-shows/ Thanks for sharing that link LH. Interesting that women and millennials are some of the most conflicted. Perhaps it was more than just a coincidence that the talk that Elder Nelson gave at BYU-H in which he claims the POX as revelation was all about millennials and how true millennials are those that are prepared for the millennial reign of the Savior.
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