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hey Cwald – what was that you were referring to? I seem to be rememberring something about E. Holland saying that as a response having talked to John Dehlin? And on a sidenote:
Its going to be so interesting to see where the church is heading in the future. I personally think something BIG is happening the next 10-20 years.(and it is happening right now) I think we will be moving FAST away from the recent 50 years of “fundamentalisation” (is that even a word?
of members of the church.(yeah! curse you “correlation”!! 😆 ) I think with people like Henry B eyring and Dieter Uchtdorf we will see a much more dynamic, nuanced, embracing and “big tent” mormonism in the next decades. I really hope that for my kids!I hope you are right, Bear. What I get from this podcast, is there has been a hell of a policy chance just in the last last two years.
That is a good thing.
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The “wolves in sheep clothing” rhetoric and the demise of OMIDS is just the tipping of the ice berg…so I hope. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:The “wolves in sheep clothing” rhetoric and the demise of OMIDS is just the tipping of the ice berg…so I hope.
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FYI. OMIDS the Old Maxwell Institute Danites.
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This is much longer than I anticipated, but this really struck a nerve…. This is one of the occasions I actually hope someone important is monitoring these forums…. Especially this:
Quote:Mr. Mattsson said he sought the help of the church’s highest authorities. He said a senior apostle came to Sweden at his request and told a meeting of Mormons that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that, once it was published, would prove all the doubters wrong. But Mr. Mattsson said the promised text never appeared, and when he asked the apostle about it, he was told it was impertinent to ask.
This is the part that puts the church in the worst light for me. Unfortunately this thinking is wired into many in mormonism. It’s the same story of JS and the plates…at least from my perspective. Perhaps JS had gold plates in another room under a cloth or in the bottom of a barrel. But no one will ever know because it was “impertinent” for anyone else to see them.
And say he DID have something in the briefcase that would dispel all doubt….How could he call himself a servant of God if he is withholding information that could prove the church right, convert the world, and turn earth into Zion. It’s a horrible place that GA put himself in. Either he’s a liar or he’s involved in a conspiracy that’s holding back the progress of humanity.
…Or he’s just deluded himself and like too many TBMs can’t process why people just don’t blindly follow leadership.
I think there is a middle way. But the church seems to deny that. Like cwald’s experience.
Or GBH:
Quote:Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
There’s plenty of examples of that. And that’s what I find the most frustrating. All of us here are trying to find a middle way that the leadership of the church says doesn’t exist, or ropes in with other forms of “apostasy”.
Until they acknowledge their own imperfection and that of past leaders and stop being afraid to disown past falsehoods and cast aside current false teachings. Until they say that the priesthood ban was wrong, that polygamy was wrong, the Joseph Smith did not translate the plates in the manner they’ve been teaching. Until they give up the idea that no 18 year old could have written the Book of Mormon, inspired or not, or stop teaching the first vision as anything other than a spiritual vision of which several accounts–from JS himself!–exist. Until they stop building up the church to get gain through oil exploration companies, wagyu beef farms, and luxury malls.
Until they stop saying people need to accept whatever the prophet says and follow it, consequences be damned, people will continue to flood out of the church. I hate the lack of sympathy from a leadership that clearly doesn’t understand how HARD people are working to try and stay. But rather than feel accepted for what we can bring to the table, they try to make us feel guilty for not falling in line. And they heap calls to repentance upon us for no reason other than they are too afraid to use the common sense and free agency and desire and capacity for learning that God granted them.
I’m getting so tired of trying to make this work…. I could get past much of this, but there are so many problems with it. At some point it just gives…
I had a great conversation with my wife again. We talked about why the church is important to her–the support, the programs, the morals, etc. Especially for raising kids. I get most of it. And I want to try to make church work. And for all the bad past, the church is getting so much better! But it’s so slow…. What bugs me is still that in 1977 if I’d railed against the church for racism, I could have got myself excommunicated. In 1979, it was fixed. So what about those who now find fault with the church’s treatment of homosexuals? They can get ex’d. But in 20-30 years it’ll probably change. If these leaders are so inspired and perfect then why are they decades behind every major advancement of human rights? Be it rights for women, for those of another color, and now for those who are born with a different orientation. Jesus was incredibly progressive. Why isn’t the church?
I know why I want this to work. It’s because the core teachings of man’s nature and relationship to God resonate like no other religion. The idea that this life is ours to learn to exercise our free agency is beautiful. The idea that I have a Heavenly Father who loves me as his child, who is sad when I am sad, who struggles watching me struggle, but who lets me go through it knowing that it will be for the better–that is beautiful. The idea that I can use my own God-given senses to figure out right and wrong independent of any creeds, dogmas, or doctrines is beautiful. That my family will be together in the eternities (perhaps not 100% as the church teaches it now, but still…) is a beautiful idea. The idea that heaven is a place of continued growth and learning and progression and not a place where we will sing songs about God’s greatness all the time, is beautiful.
I love these ideas and many, many more. And So many of them came through Joseph Smith. I don’t know what percentage of his teachings were inspired, but I do know that many of them I’ve felt confirmed by the same spirit which now says the LDS church isn’t true in the way I’ve been taught. These ideas also have parallels in religions around the world, but I’ve never found what I consider the “truth” to be so concentrated in another religion. But the institutional church puts up so many walls around it with falsities that it’s hard to reach the core. And I can accept these doctrines as true and live them independent of whether JS was actually a prophet, whether he actually saw God and Jesus, whether he was actually visited by an angel, whether there were actual plates, etc. I can accept them because I feel they are right and they help me make sense of the universe. That acceptance isn’t dependent on what actually happened in that grove in 1820 (or 1821…or maybe 1822). It doesn’t matter. Truth is truth because it’s truth. Not because the source is. And if I’ve learned the truth about JS and I need to disconnect him from the equation a bit to make it all work, then what’s the problem? It’s not all or nothing! Stop teaching that!
Just admit you were wrong in the past, stop claiming to be the be-all, end-all of the universe and let people serve each other and try to lift each other’s burdens and mourn with each other and comfort each other and rejoice with each other and all of these other things that we can do without leaders telling us we just need to accept X doctrine or we aren’t righteous.
/rant.
I pray that “big tent” Mormonism is coming and that these things will change. They have to. Because this isn’t going to be the last area authority to do this if they don’t. NYT will get a lot more articles in the future….
Great great post wu. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
wuwei wrote:I love these ideas and many, many more. And So many of them came through Joseph Smith. I don’t know what percentage of his teachings were inspired, but I do know that many of them I’ve felt confirmed by the same spirit which now says the LDS church isn’t true in the way I’ve been taught. These ideas also have parallels in religions around the world, but I’ve never found what I consider the “truth” to be so concentrated in another religion. But the institutional church puts up so many walls around it with falsities that it’s hard to reach the core.
And I can accept these doctrines as true and live them independent of whether JS was actually a prophet, whether he actually saw God and Jesus, whether he was actually visited by an angel, whether there were actual plates, etc. I can accept them because I feel they are right and they help me make sense of the universe. That acceptance isn’t dependent on what actually happened in that grove in 1820 (or 1821…or maybe 1822). It doesn’t matter. Truth is truth because it’s truth. Not because the source is.And if I’ve learned the truth about JS and I need to disconnect him from the equation a bit to make it all work, then what’s the problem? It’s not all or nothing! Stop teaching that!
Seems like we’re told, No, no, you can’t do that. It’s a boxed set. You have to accept it as packaged. Only problem is, I
amdoing it. If I can’t take the cellophane off and accept concepts individually, I don’t have any choice but to go elsewhere, if not physically, mentally. I hope that the lingering fear I have that I’m being prideful or reckless will keep me safe from actually being so. cwald wrote:cwald wrote:The “wolves in sheep clothing” rhetoric and the demise of OMIDS is just the tipping of the ice berg…so I hope.
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FYI. OMIDS the Old Maxwell Institute Danites.
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Thanks, was about to ask
I really felt for you in the points you made a few posts back. I realise that being in the class of Y2K+12/13 is a lot easier than for those like you who took a bullet a few years earlier. I appreciate your laying the groundwork for the rest of us.
I always used to wonder at the knights who would volunteer to lead a vanguard into battle with almost guaranteed death.
I’m sorry if this is all ‘too little too late’ for you cwald. I appreciate your contribution.
Ann wrote:wuwei wrote:I love these ideas and many, many more. And So many of them came through Joseph Smith. I don’t know what percentage of his teachings were inspired, but I do know that many of them I’ve felt confirmed by the same spirit which now says the LDS church isn’t true in the way I’ve been taught. These ideas also have parallels in religions around the world, but I’ve never found what I consider the “truth” to be so concentrated in another religion. But the institutional church puts up so many walls around it with falsities that it’s hard to reach the core.
And I can accept these doctrines as true and live them independent of whether JS was actually a prophet, whether he actually saw God and Jesus, whether he was actually visited by an angel, whether there were actual plates, etc. I can accept them because I feel they are right and they help me make sense of the universe. That acceptance isn’t dependent on what actually happened in that grove in 1820 (or 1821…or maybe 1822). It doesn’t matter. Truth is truth because it’s truth. Not because the source is.And if I’ve learned the truth about JS and I need to disconnect him from the equation a bit to make it all work, then what’s the problem? It’s not all or nothing! Stop teaching that!
Seems like we’re told, No, no, you can’t do that. It’s a boxed set. You have to accept it as packaged. Only problem is, I
amdoing it. If I can’t take the cellophane off and accept concepts individually, I don’t have any choice but to go elsewhere, if not physically, mentally. I hope that the lingering fear I have that I’m being prideful or reckless will keep me safe from actually being so. Wuwei, I loved your post. And Ann, great analogy. This is a really great way of putting it.
And I also appreciate your humility. I don’t sense any pride, but I totally understand your fears. I keep having these moments of niggle where I think “what if I’m really throwing away the one single truth.” But that isn’t enough to affect the rest of it.
I think a Soviet comparison is apt. The LDS is much, much less oppressive than the USSR (it doesn’t murder and imprison millions!), but there are some parallels. I think we are entering the period of glasnost and perestroika (remember them?) that the Soviets experienced. They continually blamed problems on outside forces, saboteurs, and their enemies. They also whitewashed Lenin to the point of making him a kind of god. But then it came out in the 1980s that Lenin was a bit more “rounded” than people gave him credit for and it wasn’t Stalin who started all the trouble. It was the fax machine which killed the USSR in the end.
As long as we pretend our members won’t look at other sources, we’re like a dictatorship, and we’re only going to retain a narrow band of people.
It was great to read this article and show how so many intelligent, good people in the church would rather know the awful truth than live a lie. My dad joined the Mormon church as a single man in Berlin Germany. He told me that he joined because he believed it was the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. He did not know for sure when he joined but said he joined anyway because he told me if he ever found out, it wasn’t true, he could always leave it. I was raised to investigate and question from my dad and when I had my crisis of faith it was really hard. When I reached out to my bishop and home teacher and emailed them John Dehlins link as to why people leave the lds church and how to treat them, I was ignored, told not to question, and released from my callings. No one has ever tried to answer my questions and judged me as being deceived and an apostate. Until leaders stop treating questioning people with respect and are not afraid of getting at the truth, good members will leave. The simple fact is that if we want to grow as a church, we have to win converts. The only way to do that is to see ourselves realistically from an outside perspective. I’m saying this of the church organization – the gospel message is in and of itself compelling; the church organization is the baggage that comes with the gospel message. And IMO, the church has less to fear of its rocky past than it does of how it handles things in the present. Having weird stuff in your past is understandable. Pretending you don’t is not very noble. Punishing people for finding out about it is not Christian. And beyond that there is the problem of naming intellectuals (smart people), feminists (women), and homosexuals the enemies of the church and treating them as such. It doesn’t fly today. Who wants to be in an organization of dumb people, sexists and homophobes? Fewer and fewer people all the time. Joanna Brooks made a great point that the story didn’t tell the other half of the story:
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2013/07/is-mormon-faith-crisis-for-men-only-front-page-ny-times-piece-on-mormon-doubt-misses-half-of-the-story/ Lastly I agree with those who have said they don’t see how an area authority didn’t know any of this stuff. On what is he an authority exactly?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligion/2013/07/skeptical-about-the-nyts-mormon-skeptic-piece/ hawkgrrrl wrote:Joanna Brooks made a great point that the story didn’t tell the other half of the story:
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org … the-story/.Lastly I agree with those who have said they don’t see how an area authority didn’t know any of this stuff. On what is he an authority exactly?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/getreligio … tic-piece/Thanks for the links Hawk. I also found a spinoff blog post with some interesting points. In a nutshell, he questions the primacy of the internet for the rise of FC and instead points to the erosion of social immersion among LDS (by cutting back our meeting to a 3 hr block format) and Correlation that made the church more efficient but also robbed its ability to progress through home grown grass-roots efforts. Before correlation the various co-existing, non-official, sometimes competing gospel interpretations actually would form the basis for an evolving story of mormonism that could hope to withstand and someday even incorporate the deluge of contradictory information. Think about it. The works of Eugene England, Bushman, Givens, etc. would all be part of these uncorrelated gospel understandings that might wax of wane in popularity based on social and community needs.
http://stormsandpower.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-contemporary-crisis-in-mormon-faith.html?m=1 hawkgrrrl wrote:It doesn’t fly today. Who wants to be in an organization of dumb people, sexists and homophobes? Fewer and fewer people all the time.
I love this comment.
1) because I have fun telling myself, “There is no middle ground – you are either a dumb person, sexist, or homophobe or you are not. Some would have you believe that you can be dumb sometimes, sexist in some ways, and undecided on homosexuality – this is one of Satan’s great lies.”
2) because it reminds me of a comment made about the need for the Republicans to appeal to a broader base in order to win elections, “You can’t depend on middle class white males to win elections – they just aren’t making enough of them anymore.”
while being a GA with doubts going public is new, the story and the concerns is the same. For me there is little new here. DBMormon wrote:while being a GA with doubts going public is new, the story and the concerns is the same. For me there is little new here.
For me, that is the hardest and most disappointing thing ^^^^I have been holding out hope for a very long time that things would be different. I think my last shred of hope that our LEADers will LEAD (not to mention prophecy, see, and reveal) has just been snuffed out. If they cannot/will not even respond to “one of their own” (GA- level with a critical sphere of influence) with sufficient respect, love, attention, and resources, what hope is there that they will ever care enough about the “little people” (e.g. General membership) to authoritatively hear and respond to our genuine concerns & challenges?
I am with Hans M. I don’t want to hurt the church– I have tried every faithful means that I know of to stay in and contribute to the church. But, I want the truth.
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