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DBMormon wrote:
I think they tried. Elder Jensen and Bro. Turley went with the intention of answering the issues. They were overwhelmed and not prepared for the gravity and expanse of issues. They learned their lesson. These questions being asked. Some have very compelling reasonable answers, some are even handed with the criticism and some are outmatched. That said the trouble is getting someone to slow down, take a breath, and seriously give room for the faithful answer to have some weight. For me most of these issues no longer cause doubt, some still do.
The more I take time to understand context and to grasp what real LDS doctrine is, the less bothered I am.It is not a simple give some answers or apoligize. It is way more nuanced then that. Nope. “It’s not important to your salvation.” That standard answer is not going to work anymore DB. And i think you know it. I’m not sure the point you are trying to make with this and your previous post in this thread. Please elaborate, because i find it hard to believe you are just going to repeat what the mopoligists are saying over at MAD… “Old news, old issues…move along…nothing to see here…”
Seriously, how can you say there is little new here?
I think that is the point these Swedes are trying to make…the membership are not going to accept nonanswers anymore. That is why it is NEWS. A GA, and pretty well entire congregations are leaving or becoming “disaffected.” This should be a wake up call. And if the church shrugs their shoulders and say “meh” like you just did, things will only get worse.
Things I found interesting in the article: 1. Mattsons looked for other alternatives because of their doubts, but found none better and remain in the faith (although I don’t think he is AA any longer, right?) – the point…they have doubts, they voiced them, found no answers, still choose to StayLDS and make it work.
2. Multiple references to church authorities recognizing there is doubt among members on these issues (Elder Holland, Elder Perry, Eric Hawkins, etc)…in other words, they are not oblivious to these issues.
3. Examples of Givens or Bushman that recognize the complexities and difficulties on these common issues, and yet remain faithful…the point…very intelligent people are aware of these issues and choose to still have faith in the church.
There is a feeling to me that there is awareness that these doubts are legitimate, and it seems clear there are no answers to the questions being raised (or they would have been given).
How can the church apologize for something that is not understood? How can the church provide leadership and direction on issues there are no answers for?
Currently, Elder Holland’s response seems to be all that is given as advice:
Quote:Some church leaders are well aware of the doubters in their midst. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, who serves in the church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the governing body just below the three-member First Presidency), said in April while addressing the church’s semiannual general conference in Salt Lake City: “Please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood and resolved. They do, and they will.”
Issues DO need to be examined.
Issues WILL BE resolved (someday seems to be the implication…but that may mean there are no answers to resolve them now…so try to have faith and hope that someday they will).
I think individuals are left to grapple with these issues based on their own faith. Because there are no institutional answers for these…or that secret book in the briefcase would have been published. I don’t think there is a book that will satisfy ALL doubts. I think we have to
choosehow to navigate despite legitimate doubts and concerns on our own. I think I have to learn to believe in something, even if I don’t have answers to everything right now.
And just to prove my point…here is the first thing I read about Mattson today. Quote:Alan The Oblivious @ MAD wrote:I particularly object to the charge by some that the church has “hidden” it’s history. The documents have always been available, it’s just that nobody bothered to read them. The difference now is that the internet has made them more readily available, especially to people who would ordinarily not have sufficient interest to seek them out.
It is not the mission of the church to be objective on these matters. The church will put the best interpretation or spin on difficult issues, our enemies the worst.
This is nothing new and has been going on for years.What I find interesting is that none of the historical information now appearing to trouble people is new or freshly revealed. It’s been around for decades for the most part. It’s just the same old stuff re-packaged. As the preacher said in Ecclesiastes, there is “nothing new under the sun“. Yes that information is available, but much of it is not made readily available by the church. If it was readily available, it would be integrated into our lessons, and teachings would be different. Doctrines would likely be similar, but the way it is presented would be fundamentally different. We would not be trying to establish the one true church by using misrepresentation, status quo, or partial truths to do so. That is not a firm foundation, and it is starting to rain.
If I am unable to trust the church over a few things, it makes it difficult to trust it over many things.
Reflexzero wrote:Yes that information is available, but much of it is not made readily available by the church.
If it was readily available, it would be integrated into our lessons, and teachings would be different. Doctrines would likely be similar, but the way it is presented would be fundamentally different. We would not be trying to establish the one true church by using misrepresentation, status quo, or partial truths to do so. That is not a firm foundation, and it is starting to rain.
If I am unable to trust the church over a few things, it makes it difficult to trust it over many things.
I’m curious, where can I read a transcript of the Council of 50 minutes?
I was going to say much the same as Heber, after reading the actual article. People generally are skipping right past the fact that they chose to stay, after having searched for other options that would resonate as much – and that Church leaders admit there are no one-size-fits-all answers that will work for everyone.
I really like those two points, and I like that we now know about two “high ranking” people who definitely are walking their own middle way.
Yes, it is shocking for those who want black-and-white answers (both inside and outside the LDS Church), but it’s a wonderful story to me.
Old-Timer wrote:I was going to say much the same as Heber, after reading the actual article.
People generally are skipping right past the fact that they chose to stay,…
Yep. What has really gotten me hot under the collar, is how the Mattson are being portrayed across the bloggernacle and the comment sections of the papers.
“Apostate, wolf amongst sheep., Judas etc etc”
Yet, these folks are still in. They haven’t resigned or been exed. And if you listen to the podcast, the AA and SP gave the members who were part of the Mormon Stories Facebook group and who were at the meeting an ultimatum…either all in or all out. They were also instructed to not talk about the meeting or their doubts and question with other members, including their own family. Then the Bishops were instructed to call them in and determine if they were wolves, and follow up and get a commitment or face church discipline. Many of them resigned.
This is EXACTLY the kind of scare I have been talking about for years now. I absolutely believe the story, because they did this same crap to me. Same type of questions and rhetoric about John Dehlin’s movement and Mormon Stories group that Mattson describes in the podcast.
And I don’t think it isa coincidence…Oct G-conference 2010….this Mattson story in Nov 2010. SPs in Cache Valley were instructed by AA how to handle Mormon Stories people and they started pulling us in in Spring 2011…people who are associated with MS and even staylds…John, Brian, myself…and I know of several personal friends from Cache Valley….released from callings, TR, played family members against each other and told keep to quiet…
The questions and threats were very VERY similar. “all in, or all out.”
Mattson did neither recommit or resign. He simply walked away and become inactive. And thank god, his wife walked with him. But it took awhile. She says she was sitting in church by herself one day, and finally it dawned on her that her marriage and her husband were more important than the church political games.
And he still talks kindly of the church. He wouldn’t even engage JD when asked about Packer. Simply kept saying, “I don’t want to go there.” Wouldn’t even talk about his dealings and conversation with him. That doesn’t sound like a bitter apostate who is trying to destroy the church.
Anyway, that is my long version of agree with you, Ray. Yes. It is a great example of a high profile member/leader who wants to remain in the church and walk a middle way.
The MS podcast really is a must.
Perhaps the church has learned it’s lesson. They
cwald wrote:I’m curious, where can I read a transcript of the Council of 50 minutes?
First of all your dress all in black including a black ski mask. Get to the roof of the historical section of the COB and get into the air shaft. Make your way to the records section and lower yourself to the Frist Presidency vault. Get past the time lock and once inside find the cabinet labeled council of 50 minutes and cut away the interlocking chains and titanium bands… You get the idea.
GBSmith wrote:cwald wrote:I’m curious, where can I read a transcript of the Council of 50 minutes?
First of all your dress all in black including a black ski mask. Get to the roof of the historical section of the COB and get into the air shaft. Make your way to the records section and lower yourself to the Frist Presidency vault. Get past the time lock and once inside find the cabinet labeled council of 50 minutes and cut away the interlocking chains and titanium bands… You get the idea.
Oh. Not on the LDS.org site then?
🙂 GBSmith wrote:First of all your dress all in black including a black ski mask. Get to the roof of the historical section of the COB and get into the air shaft. Make your way to the records section and lower yourself to the Frist Presidency vault. Get past the time lock and once inside find the cabinet labeled council of 50 minutes and cut away the interlocking chains and titanium bands… You get the idea.
…also helpful to hum Mission Impossible theme music while doing so.cwald wrote:This is EXACTLY the kind of scare I have been talking about for years now.
Do you think they’ve learned that these actions may have been knee-jerk, and have stopped instructing SPs to sweep the online forums since those times a couple years ago?
Now they say:
Quote:Eric Hawkins, a church spokesman, said that “every church faces this challenge,” adding, “
The answer is not to try to silence critics, but to provide as much information and as much support as possible to those who may be affected. [emphasis added]”
Do you believe them?Heber13 wrote:cwald wrote:This is EXACTLY the kind of scare I have been talking about for years now.
Do you think they’ve learned that these actions may have been knee-jerk, and have stopped instructing SPs to sweep the online forums since those times a couple years ago?
Yes. I think they immediately backed off when they realized their fear tactics weren’t going to work anymore. I’m sure they expected the bulk of these 600 MS Swede saints to repent, abandon the bloggernacle, and return to full participation in the church. I’m guessing, from talking to others, and from what I’ve read, and my own experience…that simple didn’t happen.
They tried to use a bandage, but the bleeding just got worse.
Quote:“The answer is not to try to silence critics”
I also believe that statement is sincere. I think this is an example of something that has been learned “
by sad experience” as a result of good people trying to use unrighteous dominion – and, yes, good people can find themselves doing that. I know I’ve been guilty of it on occasion. cwald wrote:Yes. I think they immediately backed off when they realized their fear tactics weren’t going to work anymore.
It is still unfortunate that the damage was already done.GBSmith wrote:cwald wrote:I’m curious, where can I read a transcript of the Council of 50 minutes?
First of all your dress all in black including a black ski mask. Get to the roof of the historical section of the COB and get into the air shaft. Make your way to the records section and lower yourself to the Frist Presidency vault. Get past the time lock and once inside find the cabinet labeled council of 50 minutes and cut away the interlocking chains and titanium bands… You get the idea.
Don’t forget that you have to make it past an ill tempered and slightly starved tiger.
The suggestion that the books are open and available is ludicrous. If “our history is an open book” is the statement, then the interpretation is, our history is an open book locked up in a den of lions.
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