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DBMormon wrote:
I teach truth, not the supposed truth that many members hold to but real truth, when they hear it, they know it.I give people flexibility, I know my history to be able to set facts straight, and I don’t push an agenda at the expense of hurting someone. I try to let people have their “truth” withou my bursting their bubble but rather planting seeds DBMormon wrote:I also add, in Mormon theology and doctrine, there is nuance. It is easy using Leaders quotes and not my own dogma to show their is room for alternate views. I never tell someone how it is, but rather show them there is another way to see that same principle so that in the end they are free to choose for themselves but also having all the info on the table.
When you give people room to understand issues in context and either choose their non-sense or the new and explained truth that is now available that they had never noticed before, guess which one they gravitate to? Maybe you could give some examples.
DBMormon wrote:I also add, in Mormon theology and doctrine, there is nuance. It is easy using Leaders quotes and not my own dogma to show their is room for alternate views. I never tell someone how it is, but rather show them there is another way to see that same principle so that in the end they are free to choose for themselves but also having all the info on the table.
When you give people room to understand issues in context and either choose their non-sense or the new and explained truth that is now available that they had never noticed before, guess which one they gravitate to?
I agree with this approach. I’ve been sorting our quotes thread into 8 broad categories and will re-upload them soon.
But we also have to accept that ‘their’ truth is just as valid and ‘true’ to them as ours is to us. As long as someone else’s truth is not imposed on me, I’m happy for God to give them whatever truth needed to have an effect. Even if I consider it nonsense.
The purpose of a perceived truth is action. D&C 19:7 teaches this perfectly:
Quote:
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
The truths or values we believe lead to actions, actions lead to habits, habits form character and character is who we become.
God wants Human Beings not Human Doings.
DBMormon wrote:I will add, that among faithful LDS who are aware of the difficult issues, only about half seem equipped with the empathy and charity to help. Some can’t understand how you got there and others can’t see you as anything more then an enemy. I believe we would find the same in the world as well. We are pretty diverse as human beings
That’s a very kind, non-provocative statement. I see us tearing each other apart and tearing down and I wish General Conference was three days instead of months away. I am really hoping that “doubters” will be validated and more welcome in the LDS family. It really does pain me to read what I felt was a somewhat snarky post at Meridian mag. I want to tell the author, “We are sisters! I’m the visiting teacher you saw yesterday. You taught my daughter on Sunday. Our husbands helped load a moving van on Saturday. And the Mattssons did the same for decades.”
Ann wrote:DBMormon wrote:I will add, that among faithful LDS who are aware of the difficult issues, only about half seem equipped with the empathy and charity to help. Some can’t understand how you got there and others can’t see you as anything more then an enemy. I believe we would find the same in the world as well. We are pretty diverse as human beings
That’s a very kind, non-provocative statement. I see us tearing each other apart and tearing down and I wish General Conference was three days instead of months away. I am really hoping that “doubters” will be validated and more welcome in the LDS family. It really does pain me to read what I felt was a somewhat snarky post at Meridian mag. I want to tell the author, “We are sisters! I’m the visiting teacher you saw yesterday. You taught my daughter on Sunday. Our husbands helped load a moving van on Saturday. And the Mattssons did the same for decades.”
This.
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Just came across this: Quote:“Truth is that which yields a desired result more effectively than other options.”
I don’t know the source. But it works for me.
In my ‘angry phase’ I would have been spitting blood at that statement. I would take it to be an excuse for the church’s distortion of truth. A justification for lies.
But today I see it as another way of describing God’s personalised curriculum. My bro-in-law’s truth is ‘there is no God.’ That truth yields some wonderful results. He considers his only ‘afterlife’ to be the legacy he leaves his children. As a result he tries to model the behaviour that he would want to see in his children and in those they associate with.
If there is a God, and I believe there is, I also think he is able to provide the right truths and opportunities to each person.
GBSmith wrote:DBMormon wrote:I teach truth, not the supposed truth that many members hold to but real truth, when they hear it, they know it.I give people flexibility, I know my history to be able to set facts straight, and I don’t push an agenda at the expense of hurting someone. I try to let people have their “truth” withou my bursting their bubble but rather planting seeds DBMormon wrote:I also add, in Mormon theology and doctrine, there is nuance. It is easy using Leaders quotes and not my own dogma to show their is room for alternate views. I never tell someone how it is, but rather show them there is another way to see that same principle so that in the end they are free to choose for themselves but also having all the info on the table.
When you give people room to understand issues in context and either choose their non-sense or the new and explained truth that is now available that they had never noticed before, guess which one they gravitate to? Maybe you could give some examples.
I show the Doctrine is not to trust church leaders explicitly but rather to measure against the Holy Ghost what they say.
I show Elder Holland’s statement from the PBS interview that he wants us to be patient with those who do not hold a historical/literal view
I show President McKay believed in Evolution and ate rum cake
I show that SSA is not a sin through Leaders quotes
There are hundreds of these….. and each gives us more flexibility in the church to be different and for nuance to be ok
DBMormon wrote:GBSmith wrote:DBMormon wrote:I teach truth, not the supposed truth that many members hold to but real truth, when they hear it, they know it.I give people flexibility, I know my history to be able to set facts straight, and I don’t push an agenda at the expense of hurting someone. I try to let people have their “truth” withou my bursting their bubble but rather planting seeds DBMormon wrote:I also add, in Mormon theology and doctrine, there is nuance. It is easy using Leaders quotes and not my own dogma to show their is room for alternate views. I never tell someone how it is, but rather show them there is another way to see that same principle so that in the end they are free to choose for themselves but also having all the info on the table.
When you give people room to understand issues in context and either choose their non-sense or the new and explained truth that is now available that they had never noticed before, guess which one they gravitate to? Maybe you could give some examples.
I show the Doctrine is not to trust church leaders explicitly but rather to measure against the Holy Ghost what they say.
I show Elder Holland’s statement from the PBS interview that he wants us to be patient with those who do not hold a historical/literal view
I show President McKay believed in Evolution and ate rum cake
I show that SSA is not a sin through Leaders quotes
There are hundreds of these….. and each gives us more flexibility in the church to be different and for nuance to be ok
I just put it in the quotes thread, but it’s worth repeating.
Hugh Nibley in Temple and Cosmos
Quote:
There’s no office in the Church that qualifies the holder to give the official interpretation of the Church. We’re to read the scriptures for ourselves, as guided by the Spirit.Joseph Smith himself often disagreed with various of his brethren on different points, yet he never cracked down on them, saying they’d better change this or that, or else. He disagreed with Parley P. Pratt on a number of things, and also with Brigham Young on various things.
http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=103&id=1154 Leaders simply are not what some people make them out to be. We need to lower our expectations and not imagine the prophets are yapping puppets sitting on a ventriloquist’s lap.
Macjay…Great. Say that in SM talk and ss lesson…and get back to me. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Better yet…let’s hear it in general conference. 😮 Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Macjay…Great. Say that in SM talk and ss lesson…and get back to me.
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I just used it today in sacrament meeting. Nobody seemed to get too upset.
I also said a testimony of Christ that lead us to model our behaviour on him was far more important than a testimony of prophets, apostles and the Book of Mormon. I also said “a testimony of the Book of Mormon is pointless if we don’t abide by the principles in it.”
Later, while chatting over at someone’s house I talked about how I feel comfortable with the idea that God gives absolutes to people who need them as part of a personalised curriculum for each one of us. That we had no real concept of the eternities, only metaphors and that I would not be angry with God if I found out that D&C 1:30 only applied to the members who believe it, that it was the only true church for us, but not for all of the human family.
And no-one burned me at the stake for saying any of it!
Today was a good day. I feel like I’m finding my new ‘voice.’ I think heterodoxy can be acceptable if done without contention and supported by the perspectives of people that are known and trusted.
mackay11 wrote:cwald wrote:Macjay…Great. Say that in SM talk and ss lesson…and get back to me.
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I just used it today in sacrament meeting. Nobody seemed to get too upset…
Today was a good day. I feel like I’m finding my new ‘voice.’ I think heterodoxy can be acceptable if done without contention and supported by the perspectives of people that are known and trusted.
What cwald said. As long as you speak in generalities nobody’s going to leap to there feet and say “silence ye fiend from the infernal pit” or feel the bishop’s tug on your coat tail and see the look on his face that says sit down now dumbass. But it you announce that the spirit as witnessed to you that you didn’t need to do your home teaching last month, or that 10% is arbitrary and your family financial needs are more important than tithing, or that the SP’s, Area Authority, or church’s latest program is ill conceived (insert Prop
then see how far you get. The expectation is that if you pray for guidance you’ll get the right answer, not some answer that’s different from what’s expected.Quote:But it you announce that the spirit as witnessed to you that you didn’t need to do your home teaching last month, or that 10% is arbitrary and your family financial needs are more important than tithing, or that the SP’s, Area Authority, or church’s latest program is ill conceived (insert Prop
then see how far you get.Why would anyone do something like that, when more gentle messages saying the exact same thing in general terms are accepted and will cause actual reflection?
Seriously, mackay11’s example is a perfect one showing that thoughtful, gentle “teaching of correct principles and having people govern themselves” can work.Why screw it up by insisting that everyone else see things exactly as we do? Doing it confrontational or harshly only makes us the opposite extreme of the ultra-conservative TBM –
which, in a real way, means we are them.I don’t want that – people taking the exact same position on the opposite end of the spectrum arguing with and making each other mad. What’s the point?
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:But it you announce that the spirit as witnessed to you that you didn’t need to do your home teaching last month, or that 10% is arbitrary and your family financial needs are more important than tithing, or that the SP’s, Area Authority, or church’s latest program is ill conceived (insert Prop
then see how far you get.Why would anyone do something like that, when more gentle messages saying the exact same thing in general terms are accepted and will cause actual reflection?
Seriously, mackay11’s example is a perfect one showing that thoughtful, gentle “teaching of correct principles and having people govern themselves” can work.Why screw it up by insisting that everyone else see things exactly as we do? Doing it confrontational or harshly only makes us the opposite extreme of the ultra-conservative TBM –
which, in a real way, means we are them.I don’t want that – people taking the exact same position on the opposite end of the spectrum arguing with and making each other mad. What’s the point?
I agree there is no point in doing that but saying that the “Spirit” is the reason that you are or want to do something in contradiction to a stated program or doctrine is only going to get you labeled. Being told to “pray about it” only means that you’d better get the right answer. Maybe Nibley could get away with it but if you’re a worker bee and you have hard ass bishop you’d better watch out.
Makay11, I applaud you for your words at church today. I think you worded it perfectly. I have been more opened in all of my talks lately and it have been pretty well received but I admit not everyone is happy about it. I really try to remember to do no harm but also don’t spread no more lies or false history. cwald wrote:Macjay…Great. Say that in SM talk and ss lesson…and get back to me.
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I have said it in asacrament meeting, in Sunday School and at firesides and other places…. I find it to be well received and even eaten up
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