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I have a simple ( well difficult in a “Struggling” sort of way ) question. How do you fellow posters deal with spouses who are up to their ears in “Obedience”?
W/O going into detail, someone dear to me mentioned Obedience=Freedom.
đŸ˜® Holy crap .. What is that suppose to mean?How do you deal with being obedient while having ( personally ) DOGMA issues, Church sexism issues, Prophet issues, Big Brother etc …
How do you “Be Obedient” to an organization you no longer .. Maybe trust, take seriously, redefine to your own personal liking … WHILE your spouse just DOES it and expects it in return – Mainly B/C we have a temple marriage and we made promises to do so.
Would it be – The so commonly used phrase – Be in the Church not of the Church. ( I think that is a neat one )
Rant:
I just hate not being able to relate to DH or feel like I have to hide feelings, or hold back .. I feel terrible.
Does there come a time when you have come to a place where you aren’t sure if you are being a complete fake .. A selfish person .. A liar?
Sometimes I feel like my DH doesnt deserve someone who says “Be patient” I will love the Church again .. When really what if it never happens. What if I deserve a life brake from the heatache I put myslef through .. and mind games .. I put myself through just to try to accept an organization that irritates me. Am I being selfish all around?
LaLaLove, You sound really frustrated.
The thought that struck me when I read your sincere post was Mosiah 4:27
Quote:27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order
Maybe you don’t need to be obedient to everything right now. Pick and choose some of the most important things to be obedient on, and then study the others you aren’t sure about, and then you can be obedient to those when you feel good about it. First and foremost, you need to be obedient to your heart and what it is telling you is important more so than what others
thinkyou should be obedient to. I think obedience is a matter of trust. My 6 yr old trusts me as his dad, and when a car is coming, I don’t have time to explain all the dangers, I simply yell, “STOP” and he knows that tone and obeys, and then afterwards sees the safety obedience brought him. But he does it initially because he trusts me. When I’m at work, I resolve business issues and when co-workers tell me what the problems are, I spend time gathering data and performing statistical tests until I can see the root causes of the problems at work. It takes WAY longer than if I just obeyed what people said, but my career is simply too important to my family’s welfare to risk it all on the words of some folks I can’t completely trust, so I need the data to show me the way when trust is lacking.
But you can’t just flip a switch and be obedient to it all at once, pick some and build on them piece by piece.
Quote:D&C 50:40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.
I love obedience. In the church our goal is supposed to be to become like God, not become God, there is a big difference there. Why are we trying to become like God, because that is having a fullness of Joy. God has a fullness of Joy and it is because of who he is and what he does. So as we learn to become like him, we will find more joy and hopefully, eventually have a fullness of joy. Why is God a God, because he is obedient to the laws of the universe. It says in several places in the scripture that if God was not obedient he would cease to be God. His obedience is what holds his plan together. That and Love. The two most important aspects of God are Obedience and Love. It is his contant obedience and realiabitly that allow us to have faith in him. So why be obedient, it is because that is an attribute of God. Now, the commandments we receive are not restrictions really, but instructions on how to be like God. They are quite literally the way he would live if he were in our shoes. They are the things he would do and do perfectly. God has changed his commandments from time to time based on many different circumstances and the understanding of his children. So the commandments we have now are meant for us in the situations we are in. But all commandments are based on the two great commandments, love God and love your neighbor. What more can you say.
Now many in the church place too much stock in being perfect. We are not required to be perfect, we are asked to be WILLING to be obedient. To try and follow the commandments. To try and work on becoming like God. God knows full well that in our lost, fallen and mortal state that it is really quite impossible for us to be obedient most of the time. In fact, I would dare say that we were meant to come down here and sin. We needed to learn what it felt like to sin. (Please don’t take that as an excuse to just go and commit some big hairy sin.) However, sin was part of the plan. If we weren’t going to come down here and sin then we wouldn’t need a Savior. That is why we should never ever look down on anyone that is caught in the clutches of sin, because we’re all caught in the clutches of sin and need a Savior to pull us out. We’re here to learn through our experience that the laws of heaven really will bring us happiness.
Remember that is it God that we are being obedient to and not the church. And remember that God does not require that you are perfect right now, just that you really want to be someday. He will guide you the entire way if you let him. Unfortunately many in the church don’t believe this, they want to condem anyone who doubt or is not perfect. The truth is, they are probably trying to hide their own imperfections. One thing I have come to learn in my life is that even when I think I’m off track, I probably wasn’t. It is just my desire to be obedient clashing with my mortal nature that is not.
To answer your question after my long rant. How to deal with a spouse or for that matter anyone who is up to their ankle in “Obedience” you love them and try to help them understand the real role of Obedience in the gospel. Unfortunately, this issue drives a whole lot of people away from the church and at least from activity in the church. The sad part is, when you really look at the doctrine of the church and look closely at what is in the scriptures, you find that they were driven away by people teaching things that are not doctrinal.
Quote:someone dear to me mentioned Obedience=Freedom
That can be true, but it means two different things if you are believing or not. If you are believing, then your obedience is your faith in action. You have freedom from having to question and decided on every little thing (the thinking is done). But there are examples of people who submitted to systems or organizations they didn’t believe in, and their submission was freeing for them in that it put boundaries on their actions. Ghandi, for example, preached about submitting to the oppressive English rule and never fighting against it directly, but only by being passive. That’s an interesting parallel to consider, although I’m not necessarily advocating it. It does help, though, to see why that statement is meaningful to someone who is acting in faith, but means something entirely different in the other context. I do believe, though, that there is freedom in detachment and going with the flow. If there is something I don’t want to do that I’m being asked to do, I passively do nothing. That which we resist persists.
hawkgrrrl wrote:If there is something I don’t want to do that I’m being asked to do, I passively do nothing.
I find I am doing this more and more now, and I feel comfortable with it.
Thinking about the topic of obedience and freedom, I found it interesting to note that I feel the freest I have felt in the past 16 years of my membership in the church, and I am also being the least obedient than I have ever been. I am still keeping the basic church standards, but I have stopped beating myself up to do all that is required. I really just don’t care anymore now, most likely because I am fairly convinced that the church isn’t “true” in the traditional way that I was led to try to believe it was for so long. I think the big difference is that all the guilt is gone (what a relief!). Actually the guilt started to disappear about 3 years ago when I decided that I wasn’t ever going to get a testimony in the traditional TBM sense of the word, and that I could stop thinking there was something wrong with me because of it. After 10 years of praying and reading my scriptures every day, I just stopped caring about getting an answer since I figured if I was meant to get one HF had plenty of time to give me some kind of an inkling.
Since I still want my family to go to church and I have a desire to respect my TBM husband’s wishes, I will not do anything that is openly subversive/disobedient. But the freedom I feel comes from not feeling any guilt if I don’t read my scriptures. Or, on rare occasions, if I don’t feel like wearing my G’s, I don’t. Also, I feel absolutely no guilt whatsoever for not going to the temple.
In addition, I also feel that the sense of freedom I feel comes from the fact that the leaders of the church no longer have any control over me. They can’t threaten to take away my temple rec (I haven’t renewed it in 4 years), or threaten to release me from my calling (that would mean more free time, no problem), and the bishop knows that he would only be hurting my DH if I were ever to be disfellowshipped/disciplined, since I have been very honest with the bishop that I am at church for the sake of my family.
I guess I feel like they don’t have any power over me. After years of walking a hopelessly narrow path, I feel exhilarated to be able to spread out and breathe again.
I really like what Heber13 said… I think it is very good advice for you right now:
Heber13 wrote:Maybe you don’t need to be obedient to everything right now. Pick and choose some of the most important things to be obedient on, and then study the others you aren’t sure about, and then you can be obedient to those when you feel good about it. First and foremost, you need to be obedient to your heart and what it is telling you is important more so than what others think you should be obedient to.
Just don’t beat yourself up and feel guilty for not being the perfect member/wife/etc. No one is. I have heard other members at church say that guilt is healthy because it helps you to be a better person. I suppose that can be true in small doses, but in my experience it leads to feelings of inadequacy and depression. I have TBM friends who are very candid about the fact that they believe they will never make it to the CK because they are not good enough. If they truly feel that way I don’t know why they bother at all… I feel sad for them.Oh man, I’ve been waiting for someone to ask this question. I have so much to say about this I probably should write up a document and just post that. But then maybe no one would read it. So I’ll try to condense it. LaLaLove, for my entire life up to now I was that DH (although maybe I was much worse, I dunno). I bet my wife hated me for the first 5 years of marriage. I was so ridiculously nazi about obedience. I would nag my wife daily about her personal scripture reading. I would nag about being to church on time, FHE, morning and evening family prayers, etc. etc. etc. Oh man, I must have been the biggest pain in the rear.
LaLaLove wrote:Obedience=Freedom. Holy crap .. What is that suppose to mean?
Yes, this is the typical Mormon idea of freedom. It sounds strange to us who have discovered there are other ideas of freedom. Like hawkgrrrl said this can be a few things. In philosophy there are three main ideas of freedom. Positive liberty, negative liberty, and to some extent real liberty. In some ways they meld together, but positive liberty is the idea of freedom as a means to do something. Negative liberty is freedom from interference. Real liberty is freedom to do something, and having the means to do it. It seems to me, that in the church the idea is positive liberty. This means obedience is viewed as a way of doing something (like attaining salvation). The problem with positive liberty is it leaves out negative liberty, and real liberty, and generally is used as coercion in organizations. From Wikipedia “Berlin believed that positive liberty nearly always gave rise to the abuse of power. For when a political leadership believes that they hold the philosophical key to a better future, this sublime end can be used to justify drastic and brutal means.” I think we see this in the church, although not brutally. The church and followers believe that they have the key to a better future, so obedience to those rules is key.For those of us who see negative liberty as well, or more accurately, real liberty, this is a problem. A perfect democracy is more based on negative liberty, freedom from interference. America, right now, is struggling with this issue. We view many as not having the means to an end, positive liberty, but we are reducing negative liberty to gain it. It is an age old problem, but one that democracies do fairly well. This, I believe, is why democrats, and libertarians (political sense) don’t fit real well in the Mormon box. We see negative liberty, and real liberty as either more, or equally important to positive liberty.
So having said that, and not having answered your question at all, let me try to give you my perspective as one who was once a control freak, and obedience nut. Be gentle. Be very very gentle. It is likely that people in that position will think selective obedience is a major problem, a sign of weak will, and not having what it takes to “make it.” People with this mindset have a lot to learn in this regard, so try to help him learn this slowly. Help him see the value in Christ’s atonement in redeeming people from their sins, even ones they willingly ignore. In Mormon theology the price has been paid by Christ for the sins committed whether we repent or not. Try to demonstrate that if you are doing what you believe is right, you believe that Christ will accept your “best” effort, even if your DH doesn’t agree with your “best” effort. I firmly believe that relationships are more important than religion, so I recommend doing what it takes to keep your relationship healthy, while trying not to completely cave in. This will take time, but eventually you might be able to get more out of church and its ceremonies – I know I have.
Only a short time ago, I was ready to abandon everything, sacrament meeting, prayer, scriptures, fasting, HT, everything. But I have learned to get out of it what I can, while not taking things too seriously. I have confidence you can someday regain a tolerance for the church and even learn to manipulate it for your gain.
Let me end with my personal view of obedience. I think obedience is largely used by organizations to get us to do stuff. The rule of law exists for societies to keep peace, but they do not explain why we do things. I don’t believe that obedience is the first law of heaven, nor do I believe that God’s attributes are primarily love and obedience. If so, the age old question of omnipotence arises. Emphasis on obedience focuses on the act itself, independent of the law, rather than the reasons behind the law. If that’s the case, we can argue that suicide bombers are justified in their actions.
To demonstrate, I can ask myself a few questions. Why don’t I kill people? Is it because it’s against the law? No, it’s because it takes away another’s right to live, which I don’t believe in. Why don’t I commit adultery? Is it because it’s against God’s law? No, it’s because it would hurt my wife, and children, and I made a commitment to her. Do I not drink because it’s against the word of wisdom? No, it’s because it tastes gross, and destroys our minds and bodies. Mormons often think that being obedient is important in and of itself. I think obedience is good in this sense only when there is implicit trust – like the father, child relationship described above. But I don’t believe anyone should put their full trust, as an adult, in any organization run by humans. It’s simply too dangerous.
jmb275 wrote:I don’t believe anyone should put their full trust, as an adult, in any organization run by humans. It’s simply too dangerous.
Ditto.
jmb275 wrote:Oh man, I’ve been waiting for someone to ask this question. I have so much to say about this I probably should write up a document and just post that. But then maybe no one would read it. So I’ll try to condense it.
LaLaLove, for my entire life up to now I was that DH (although maybe I was much worse, I dunno). I bet my wife hated me for the first 5 years of marriage. I was so ridiculously nazi about obedience. I would nag my wife daily about her personal scripture reading. I would nag about being to church on time, FHE, morning and evening family prayers, etc. etc. etc. Oh man, I must have been the biggest pain in the rear.
Honestly my DH is no where near nazi mormon.
Thanks for the rest of your post BTW – interesting stuff. – Could easily write a book about it – your right.
Obedience does equal freedom, but it has to be obedience to one’s conscience – to the best that one knows at any moment. There is a place for “organizational obedience” (meaning going along with organizational rules for no other reason than to maintain communal harmony). Without such obedience, societies would devolve into chaos, as it is at the heart of law and order and the avoidance of anarchy. However, there always needs to be the higher law obedience – which means obedience to the personal revelation / light / conscience / insight / whatever you feel as coming to you directly from a higher, personal source.
The act of finding an acceptable balance is key, since the organizational extreme is Lucifer’s plan (“I will make sure nobody ever makes mistakes.”) – while the personal extreme is selfishness, narcissism and, ironically, Lucifer’s motivation and actions (“I will do whatever I want to do, regardless of any higher group purpose.”). This is one case where I believe wholeheartedly that the proper path is the constant struggle to walk a middle road – to balance the two competing freedoms and craft an individual path within the overall community highway.
Quote:Asha wrote:
I think the big difference is that all the guilt is gone (what a relief!). Actually the guilt started to disappear about 3 years ago when I decided that I wasn’t ever going to get a testimony in the traditional TBM sense of the word, and that I could stop thinking there was something wrong with me because of it. After 10 years of praying and reading my scriptures every day, I just stopped caring about getting an answer since I figured if I was meant to get one HF had plenty of time to give me some kind of an inkling.
That sounds healthy, to get rid of the guilt. We shouldn’t be carrying that around needlessly, worrying about what others think or if we are measuring up to others’ expectations. Going to church and worshipping God needs to uplift us, not burden us with guilt.
Well said, Asha.
Old-Timer wrote:There is a place for “organizational obedience” (meaning going along with organizational rules for no other reason than to maintain communal harmony). Without such obedience, societies would devolve into chaos, as it is at the heart of law and order and the avoidance of anarchy. However, there always needs to be the higher law obedience – which means obedience to the personal revelation / light / conscience / insight / whatever you feel as coming to you directly from a higher, personal source.
Well said Ray. This is what I was trying to say. This is one big difference between me and Ray. It takes Ray a few words to get across his point, and it takes me about 5 paragraphs. That’s why my posts are always so long. I feel like I never quite get out what I’m really trying to say.Old-Timer wrote:The act of finding an acceptable balance is key, since the organizational extreme is Lucifer’s plan (“I will make sure nobody ever makes mistakes.”) – while the personal extreme is selfishness, narcissism and, ironically, Lucifer’s motivation and actions (“I will do whatever I want to do, regardless of any higher group purpose.”). This is one case where I believe wholeheartedly that the proper path is the constant struggle to walk a middle road – to balance the two competing freedoms and craft an individual path within the overall community highway.
Yes, absolutely, balance is the key.Incidentally, LaLaLove, I have continued to think about your problem all day long. So here are my thoughts. I don’t know if it will help.
One book I read about a year ago that had a great impact on me as a TBM was “The Peacegiver” by James L. Ferrell. It explains the Atonement in a way I hadn’t ever thought of. It demonstrates how the atonement covers everything, all sins, all pain, and all sins by those who think others are in sin (self-righteousness). It is also set in the context of a marriage relationship that is crumbling over issues that parallel some of the things you are mentioning. It ends up demonstrating how Christ and the atonement can save a marriage. Maybe you could send it to him to read or something. I know that it really touched my life when I read it. It might offer him new perspective and better understand you in a more Christlike way.
I hope that helps some. Keep us updated.
My journey has led me to believe that I must obey the Light of Christ (or whatever you want to call it) that is inside me. I must bring that light or voice to the front and follow that path. The amazing thing that I never realized before is that everyone has a different path! The straight and narrow road can only hold one person. And it is inside you.
I think my DH is comforted by the fact that I am drawing closer to Christ even if my beliefs might be diverging from the “main body of the church.” I study the scriptures every day, we pray as a couple in addition to all the other prayers, go to all our meetings, etc. So I guess it makes it easier that I don’t go to the temple anymore and have other changing beliefs. I do try to be understanding of where he is at-our commitment to eachother is key.
Jesus said “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” He did not lie! The Law of Moses is heavy and difficult. Why? To frustrate and humble us so that we will come unto
Christ. Brigham Young had this to say about blind obedience:
“What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” —Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150, 12 January 1862
2 Nephi 21 says in part:
And others he [devil] will pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth…
Spencer W. Kimball stated:
“We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.”
We would be wise to remember that Brigham Young is who taught the Adam-God doctrine.
I found another quote from a prophet that says false doctrine is taught from our pulpits and printed in our magazines from time to time. I can’t find it, but I’ll keep looking.
There is also a recent talk from a GA that talks about there being exceptions to the rule. Basically he said don’t write and ask if you are the exception. He knows there are exceptions and you know by praying about it.
Quote:just me wrote:
The amazing thing that I never realized before is that everyone has a different path!
That is exactly it!!! So many different paths can lead to God and lead to happiness, that my way is not your way, nor yours mine. There can be universal truths that apply to all, but those only get so specific and then leave a lot of room for variation for individuals to follow their own paths as long as they lead to the same place.
Good post. Liked the quotes. Thanks.
I try to be obedient to love. I like to ask myself “which choice will demonstrate the greatest love” and try to take that path. Life is obviously complex – but I think this view helps me. Romans 13:8-10 Love fulfills the law
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