"Obedience"

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I ALWAYS try to put myself in the position of the leader – then treat leaders and their words like I would want others to treat me and my words.

I don’t want them to accept everything I say as God’s own word, but I also don’t want them to disbelieve and doubt everything I say. If I am in a position of perceived authority, I want to be taken seriously and have my words accepted generally – simply out of respect for my effort. If I’m ignorant or a jerk, that’s different – but if I am trying my best, I want to be challenged lovingly and privately (whenever possible) when someone disagrees. Ultimately, if I am leading an organization, I want my final decision to be accepted generally by those who aren’t in a position to know of and understand all the details that affected my decision. If hindsight proves I was wrong, so be it. I just hope others will understand I did the best with what I knew.

[Anonymous]

Good points Ray.

[Anonymous]

@Orson and Ray

Both of you made very good points. Maybe it is the lack of parenting experiencing (only 4 years) under my belt, or my generation, or something. I have placed such a high value on obedience my whole life, and guilt has been a strong motivator in my life. Now that I have broken away from this type of behavior, I struggle to find meaning in obedience for obedience sake. I really do see it with preschoolers, but I have a hard time treating adults as preschoolers because they don’t understand what someone else does. I would prefer an environment like college student to professor for my spirituality gurus, as opposed to preschooler to youth leader.

[Anonymous]

jmb, I assure you that the majority of church leaders want that just as badly as you do.

It’s said that one bad experience often negates up to seven good experiences. I believe that is true even more so in a religious environment. Therefore, even if only 1/8 of all church leaders treat members like children, the perception easily becomes that “The Church” does so.

That’s only TWO members of the FP and Q12 – and it’s only ONE member of the combined SP and Bishopric for each member at any given time.

[Anonymous]

That’s so true, Ray.

I think it is a higher ratio in religion, probably because religions make “unrealistic” claims, hence setting themselves up for disappointment by a follower.

I know it’s important for most religions and, more specifically, local congregations to hold up expectations to attract and retain devotees because there’s clergy to be paid. And I don’t mean that derogatorily, just that it’s much more financially taxing than the mormon system.

I wonder what the differences between the paid vs. unpaid clergy would be when it comes to unmet expectations?

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

@Orson and Ray

Both of you made very good points. Maybe it is the lack of parenting experiencing (only 4 years) under my belt, or my generation, or something. I have placed such a high value on obedience my whole life, and guilt has been a strong motivator in my life. Now that I have broken away from this type of behavior, I struggle to find meaning in obedience for obedience sake. I really do see it with preschoolers, but I have a hard time treating adults as preschoolers because they don’t understand what someone else does. I would prefer an environment like college student to professor for my spirituality gurus, as opposed to preschooler to youth leader.

JMB275, I think you’ll find the proper “environment” is always changing…never static, whether with kids, with schooling and teachers, or with church leaders and members.

I had a great system going with my girls when they were young…seemed to be working great as I was the father, they listened to me and obeyed, and I provided love and encouragement. Then they grew up to be teenagers, and while I thought I knew how to be a dad, I am now realizing you don’t just “figure it out” … you keep figuring it out as you go. Things change. Sometimes obedience is needed, sometimes it takes a back seat to a higher virtue. IMO.

I think you’ll see that as your kids grow up.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I had a great system going with my girls when they were young…seemed to be working great as I was the father, they listened to me and obeyed, and I provided love and encouragement.

Oh man, Heber could you please write me up a manual and help me out? My kids, 4 and 2 don’t listen to anything I say. It is a constant battle just to keep them out of the road so they don’t get hit! However, you should recognize that my daughter has my genes 😯 so just imagine me as a 4 year old and then you’ll know what you’re dealing with 😈

[Anonymous]

Quote:

just imagine me as a 4 year old and then you’ll know what you’re dealing with

*shudders uncontrollably* 😯

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

Oh man, Heber could you please write me up a manual and help me out? My kids, 4 and 2 don’t listen to anything I say.

You’re funny. Actually, the point goes well with this thread…you see, if I thought I had “figured out” how to get kids to listen to parents perfectly so I wrote some “commandments for parenting” because I thought I had the truth, it would have to be a universal guide that works for everyone all the time.

But actually, I really think you might get some good ideas from other parents you might want to try, but what really is of value is the process when you are trying, failing, trying again, having some success, then making more mistakes, then keep trying…and as you try…you gain satisfaction with parenting your kids. What works for me will not necessarily work for you. There is no manual you must be 100% obedient to all the time and it always works…there are guidelines and then there is a process that you benefit from as you apply it personally to your family, and to your growth. Just following a 10 step process to parenting leaves out all the sacrifice you must give and all the love you develop when your heart and soul is struggling to give everything you have to make it work for you and your kids in your situation. My way is not your way. Even if it was, I cannot give you the answers and have you be satisified with it. It is the process you go through that rewards, not whether you “figure it out” or not.

This is my struggle with church rules. Obedience to Word of Wisdom has completely lost meaning for me because all my life I did it out of obedience (fear to punishment)…not out of obedience to a process to understand the benefits of living the commandment God gave me. I don’t know if that makes sense to others, but for me, obedience to all the church rules is tough because so many rules at church that I used to think were just so aweful if broken (i.e. curse words, not wearing a tie to church, etc)…really aren’t of consequence to me and my current quest. And so I have focused on the big commandments…charity and love. So when I let my daughter of 14 date a boy because I love her…others in the ward are shocked 😯 – that’s against the rules…that’s not being obedient…that cannot be acceptable. Because in their handbook (FSOY), it says that is wrong, which means that is wrong all the time for everybody in every situation. Is God really that limiting in His love for us? I don’t think so. I think my daughter will be fine. I think I will lose respect by people in the ward for choosing this path, and those are the ones I care not to gain the respect of. I think the issue can be turned into major arguments and lost friendships over a stupid little rule…and so instead, I choose love and do not care about what others think.

And so, JMB, I’m sorry to say there is no manual that can benefit you. Enjoy your kids who have your personality, and realize how blessed they will be to benefit from that gift that God gave them. Figure out what works for your family by putting your whole heart, mind, and spirit into loving them to death (including disciplining because you care). And call your mom to tell her you appreciate her dealing with you when you were little. You can now understand a little more of what she had to deal with

[Anonymous]

So thoughtful and insightful, heber. Thanks for sharing!

Heber13 wrote:

I think the issue can be turned into major arguments and lost friendships over a stupid little rule…and so instead, I choose love and do not care about what others think.

Perfect, absolutely perfect!

[Anonymous]

I really can’t type cause I busted my pinkie finger playing volleyball this weekend. I am laughing cuz typing this is rather humorous!

I feel like understanding the principle of obedience is important and I get frustrated with the church and parents and myself when the vision of it gives way to social implications or fears or some failure to see the big picture. For me, I try to reconcile it by trying (lots of emphasis on that last word as I recognize all my weaknesses) to focus on obedience to God rather than obedience to a rule or a common practice. Seems to me in scripture there seems to be lots of exceptions to the rule and it seems to me like God is trying to get people to not get so attached to the rule that they forget who is leading them in the first place. Like this last while….I have been struggling with the temple and asking for clarification on my hearts concerns. Instead of clarifications, I get invitations just to go anyway. Why would the spirit answer me that way? Inviting me to obey before I had answers??? And I read the temple thread on here and even became more disheartened until I remember the peace that accompanied the invitation to “just go to the temple”. I haven’t obeyed yet….btw….but perhaps that is beside the point. The point being that if God is directing our path and we are obedient to Him, then isn’t this what teaching obedience is all about? Getting so caught up in the law, in my mind, is a trap that keeps understanding and wisdom from developing or keeping important obedience from happening.

[Anonymous]

@Heber13

Absolutely brilliantly said! I couldn’t agree more. Indeed, this represents my feelings about obedience exactly.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

Seems to me in scripture there seems to be lots of exceptions to the rule and it seems to me like God is trying to get people to not get so attached to the rule that they forget who is leading them in the first place.

poppyseed, your comments are so positive and sensitive…I appreciate your views.

I also lean towards this line of thought…spirit of all commandments are more important than letter of any of them. Yet there is clearly the teachings in the scriptures that are also teaching “exactness”. I’m an undecided if I want to jump back on the wagon and try to be more exactly obedient (which is easier when dealing with ward members to always profess accepted obedience) or to follow my current path to bravely question what the spirit of the laws are and let go of total obedience in search of obedience to deeper thoughts and meanings (which can be difficult to establish with ward members the personal meaning supercedes the common consent of standards set in our mormon culture). I think this is why I am still trying to grasp true faith in God, because I like your comments that the obedience should be to God…so that requires knowing the mind and will of God to be obedient to that and know when the exceptions to the rules are what I think God wants of me. Faith must be a part of obedience, or else it is just following the self-righteous crowd.

[Anonymous]

jmb275 wrote:

Yes, I see what you are saying here. And I understand that from a practical standpoint this is true. Some people will be at varying levels of capability when it comes to being obedient for the right reasons.

I think the more interesting question is “Why do expect them to be obedient”?

a) Immediate Physical Safety – There are times when person A will see something that is going to cause much harm to person B (incoming cars, etc). A person’s life may depend on person B listening to person A. I think the spiritual equivalent is “suicide watch”.

b) Long-term Physical Safety – When person A speaks up because of person B’s choices and is a whole lot more subjective (and judgemental) – and is based on a lot of cultural standards. This can be known as “nagging” in the derogative, and what most people consult with experts for to enact life changes to improve their live. The spiritual version is even more of a loaded gun based on religion, spiritual experiences, spiritual expectations, leadership roulette, ethics teachings (inside and outside of a religious sphere), motivation(s), personality type, individual resources and interests, and life phase. It has been my experience that spiritual math (or math involving people) always ends up with 1 + 1 not equaling 2. I mean this from the sense that when you calculate the individual resources of an encounter, what you end up with (inspiration, anger, service, spiritual impressions) makes the math more like 1 + 1 = 2 + a cat + another 1/2 that came in from somewhere. A good example for me is my daughter’s baptism. We kept it quiet (only involving the Primary because well it was a Primary aged child being baptized, out of state family, and we don’t do crowds) – but we had quite a crowd. What I did not expect was that a sister would volunteer to bring cookies beforehand, my branch best friend would have a baptism dress she would LOVE for my daughter to borrow, or that our adopted ward grandma would decide that there were not enough treats and go and bring more. I did not expect that the branch custodian would want to stay for the event. I also did not expect the 2-3 comments from people after the fact that a) they were surprised they did not hear about it because they were not in Primary where the grapevine regarding my daughter’s baptism originated from (I figured they would want to be able to dodge a church activity in good conscience), and b) they had WANTED to attend if they knew about it.

As far as I can tell there are at least 2 things going on that would cause them to say that:

1. They LIKE social activities and considered a chance to mingle with their friends and treats (that they should probably not eat). AND/OR they consider it their DUTY to participate in the shared experience of the branch so they can say they were there (and eat the treats).

2. They actually did not want to be there, but have been conditioned to say they wanted to be there so that they can sleep well at night.

jmb275 wrote:

But here’s the problem. If our goal is to help people do what we think is important for them to gain salvation, then your argument is sound and we should prescribe the process. But, if we are in the business of encouraging personal growth then it is the very process that is important, not so much the end goal. It is the process that creates growth, not obedience to a set of rules. In a gov’t, and corporate setting obedience takes on a different role according to the goals thereof. But in religion, the goals are (or at least ought to be IMHO) different. We are interested in people coming to Christ. This isn’t something that obedience to rules will achieve (as is attested to by so many of us here).

I think that people tend to be practical about religion. It is a lot easier to teach if you follow process A,B,C that will get you to D (which is what you want) then it is to teach how to jump from point to point (the detour to W and back to N then life happens and you end up at M is barely tolerated as existing at all let alone talked about how to deal with on a practical level). And sometimes going from A to B to C will teach you how to jump points, but that is not the goal here. The goal is the direct line, not how you handle the journey. And it is safer to stick with the standard so that there is less room to offend, and less thought needs to be put into it. Which does not help those who don’t offend easily (can you please let me know what I really want to know – taking offending me out of the equation) or those who take great joy in thinking (is there another, different, better way of doing/thinking/viewing what is going on). Most people are not good teachers (which is why we train teachers at different levels), so it is a scary leap to ask them to teach others point jumping when it is a deviation of traditional thinking (you mean you WANT me to figure out how to do this then teach it to someone else who won’t understand me and get offended at it when all I WANT to do is get through it).

jmb275 wrote:

You’re right, it does depend on the individual. I believe it is our job to help those who are young or new in the Gospel to learn to come to Christ. Their behavior will take care of itself without the need for rules. Wasn’t it BKP who said something about how a study of doctrine will do more to change behavior than a study of behavior? Might I extend that to say that a study of doctrine will do more to change behavior than a set of rules (and it won’t have the unintended negative consequences as well).

I can see this point of view.

One of the things I am mulling over though is that I don’t think that the study of doctrine will do more to change behavior then a study of behavior anymore. At it’s core, studying doctrine will train someone in the current cultural understanding of God. It MAY provide opportunities for the person to receive inspiration AND the person may change because they used it as a mechanism adaptation and personal improvement. People who have studied behavior (psychologists and related fields, school teachers, some doctors) have taken upon themselves to observe, write down, develop theories, and practical guides to influence behavior that generally work.

If a person picks up on principles (Charity, WoW as a concept of personal health, Tithing as a concept to start to organize finances), it is then that the study of doctrine will shine. And there are practical reasons to start at practical points for new converts. But the key takeaway always comes down to “What does the principle mean to you” and “what do you intend to do about the principle in your life” and “how are you going to practice this principle in your life” – which is not that far off from the study of individual behavior.

jmb275 wrote:

I’m not saying that rules aren’t necessary in a church. But I think we put way way too much emphasis on it to the point where many lose sight of the process of learning to come to Christ. They simply parrot what the Brethren have said, the right answers, and obey because they are told. Whether they are SJs or not, this doesn’t produce personal growth or a relationship with Christ (unless their relationship with Christ is simply defined by the level of their obedience to rules).

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

AmyJ wrote:

One of the things I am mulling over though is that I don’t think that the study of doctrine will do more to change behavior then a study of behavior anymore. At it’s core, studying doctrine will train someone in the current cultural understanding of God. It MAY provide opportunities for the person to receive inspiration AND the person may change because they used it as a mechanism adaptation and personal improvement. People who have studied behavior (psychologists and related fields, school teachers, some doctors) have taken upon themselves to observe, write down, develop theories, and practical guides to influence behavior that generally work.

I agree Amy. I now see that quote in the light of “to a hammer, every problem is a nail.” If I am a church leader, I do not want to have the issues confused or challenged by psychologist studies. Just let me hammer this nail out of the park.

“Feel better? … Okay then, thanks for stopping by”.

[Author]

Posts