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Some blessings are conditional upon living certain principles. I follow that. If something comes from God, it makes sense to follow it. Obedience, in and of itself, is a simple concept. Then there’s this overarching narrative that puts obedience on this massive pedestal. Sometimes it seems as if obedience is the end all be all because of the way it’s taught/emphasized and the way it’s paraded around in missionary cultures. Sometimes, obedience is conflated to mean following leaders without question.
I think both notions are wrong. Jesus is the end all be all, not obedience. The only thing in the gospel (i.e. what is actually necessary for salvation) that could be taken to imply obedience is the conditions for repentance. Thing is, repentance is often looked at as an event or process, when it really should be seen as a way of life in a never-ending quest for self-improvement. Obedience should never be blind. Ever. While you don’t necessarily need to know everything about why a commandment exists, you
doneed to know whether it comes from God or not. If it does not come from God, it may still be a good idea; and even in some cases when it comes from God, it’s advice and not commandment (*cough* WoW *cough*). Learning to tease apart which is which is one of the great challenges in life. And I feel that’s all that really can be said about obedience. And yet the church feels a need to have entire lessons and talks dedicated to the subject on a somewhat regular basis… I even gave one such talk for my mission farewell. It was basically the same stuff you always hear, regurgitated.
I felt sorry for Mission presidents that needed to enforce behavior standards on hormonal young people in disparate locations almost exclusively through their powers of inspiring or guilt tripping others. I suppose that applies in some form to the broader church leaders as well. I agree with what you say Beefster. I think we way overplay the obedience card (and it’s accompanying fear and guilt cards) way too much. In some ways it is very akin to the works and grace debate. Strict obedience denies the power of Christ’s atonement because none of can be strictly obedient in all ways all the time. I think it was Uchtdorf who said something like none of us are doing all that we can do. And of course one of the biggest problems with the strict obedience mantra is when the “promised” blessings don’t come as expected and those who expected those blessings are thrown into a tailspin. The idea of strict obedience is one of our worst cultural aspects IMO. I just posted this in the porn addiction forum, but I think it bears repeating. As humans, I think we unnecessarily create a lot of the consequences that we see as naturally following certain choices. I think it has many origins: wanting to see “justice” served, needing to feel a sense of control, maintaining the tribe’s boundaries (because I think we still tend to operate in tribal terms, even if our notions of tribes has expanded). Obedience is the easiest principle to stick this tendency onto. Personally, I think there are nuanced levels of obedience. Each situation dictates whether I need to be obedient to what someone with more experience and knowledge informs me of, or whether I need to listen to myself. Then there are the fun times where no one has a clue what they’re talking about and it’s exploring time!
🙂 Also, I take issue with the way obedience is typically taught in church because I don’t believe in the Prosperity Gospel, nor a God of Transactions.
I think obedience is foundational – to one’s conscience. DancingCarrot wrote:
Also, I take issue with the way obedience is typically taught in church because I don’t believe in the Prosperity Gospel, nor a God of Transactions.
I wonder if the Prosperity Gospel is part of why we don’t see many poor active members in the US. They were told the gospel would bring them wealth, it didn’t, and they felt the church was false as a result. Or they’re told tithing will bring prosperity, they pay their tithing and can’t afford to live, and then they feel lied to.Fwiw, there have been quite a lot of poor, active members in the wards I have attended throughout the US – enough that some of the upper-middle class members complained about how much it took to help them. That is a whole ‘nother conversation.
Old Timer wrote:
Fwiw, there have been quite a lot of poor, active members in the wards I have attended throughout the US – enough that some of the upper-middle class members complained about how much it took to help them.That is a whole ‘nother conversation.
Yes, my experience has been quite similar. The very few converts we have here tend to be those who are more needy as opposed to doctors, lawyers or engineers. We do have the latter in our ward, but they were either raised in the church or converted before they were doctors, lawyers, and engineers. But as you say, that’s another conversation.
I have real issues with blind obedience or obedience because of promised blessings (including the prosperity gospel which is alive and well in the church, even alluded to in yesterday’s GC). I think obedience only matters when we’re obeying because we want to obey, and even then no matter how obedient (or disobedient) we are has no bearing on the atonement of Christ – we cannot buy our way into heaven no matter how hard we try.
DarkJedi wrote:
we cannot buy our way into heaven no matter how hard we try.
Aw man! I was hoping 11% tithing on gross would get me salvation….During this most recent general conference (Oct 2017) there were two talks that I remember that addressed scrupulosity, which I feel is one of the fruits of Mormonism’s obsession with obedience and perfection. I’m pretty sure there was a third talk as well. I like that the subject is being addressed. I feel that obedience is one of the golden calfs of Mormonism.
I think our obsession with obedience and works stems from an outdated desire to differentiate ourselves from mainstream Christianity. Other churches tend to overemphasize the teachings of Paul. We tend to overemphasize the teachings of James. Either way, it misses the mark. The church likes to teach hard doctrine seemingly just because it’s hard. It’s no wonder the Utah has the highest depression rates in the US. The bar is set so high that we are doomed to fail. Rarely is the Atonement brought up in GC without at least a passing mention of the “need” for obedience. Grace is a very scarce word in official church publications. It has gotten better over the last couple decades, but it’s still downright pathetic.
Sometimes, seminary teachers teach more truth than do GAs. Two talks prominently circulated my mission, each officially at some point. One was a talk by Brad Wilcox on grace. The other was by Lawrence E Corbridge titled “The Fourth Missionary.” I
loveWilcox’s grace talk and I think it explains grace better than any GA I have known. OTOH, “The Fourth Missionary” is an awful talk that perpetuates damaging lies to gullible missionaries. I liked it at first (while I was still in the orthodox/honeymoon stage of my mission, before depression set in), but it only took one statement to tear down my respect for the talk. A heterodox Elder basically stated that he hates the talk because it implies that only a small minority of missionaries actually get anything out of their missions. (For background, the talk essentially breaks down missionaries into 4 groups: type 1 is disobedient and gets sent home (10% ish), type 2 is disobedient but stays on the mission (30% ish), type 3 is obedient but is unchanged by the mission (69.5%), type 4 is exactly obedient and consecrated and carries the mission home with him (0.5%)) How I did not notice that just shows how brainwashed missionaries are. On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate Mormonism on obedience to other mainstream religions? (1=no difference, 10=way more focused on obedience) I haven’t seen a lot of other churches in person, but I’d say an 9 or a 10 based on what I’ve seen and what I can infer. Orthodox Judaism comes close… Sort of. But in modern Judaism, they lack a central authority and they generally acknowledge their lack of revelation. To my knowledge, rabbis tend to focus more on simply being a good person and less on following the law of Moses, especially since they don’t have the temple. There still is some degree of obedience teachings in Christianity, especially in more institutional sects like Catholocism. What little I have learned about Islam does seem to regard obedience as important, but it’s not quite as pervasive as it is in Mormonism. Eastern religions don’t even talk about it because they focus more on the power within oneself rather than following any particular deity. Pagan religions, at least historically, cared somewhat about obedience if you consider pleasing the Gods to be obedience. Nontraditional beliefs (atheism, agnosticism, deism, theism, etc.) don’t usually waste any breath on obedience because obedience requires a well-defined and involved God to make any sense. So yeah. I’d say we’re outliers on the issue. I can’t think of a single religion that cares more about obedience. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but it’s probably a tribal fear-based religion.
Heber13 wrote:
On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate Mormonism on obedience to other mainstream religions? (1=no difference, 10=way more focused on obedience)
The lowest value on that scale is “no difference” meaning just as focused on obedience as other mainstream religions. A two on that scale would be saying that Mormonism is more focused on obedience than most religions. Mind if I tweak the scale to account for the opinion that Mormonism is less focused on obedience?
(1=way less focused on obedience, 5=no difference, 10=way more focused on obedience)
I’ve been to a few churches. The sermons do tend to focus on getting people to change their behaviors but often it is balanced with a focus on Christ and his sacrifice. There’s more talk of mercy, but it doesn’t take very much talk about mercy to be comparatively more than what I hear at LDS church.
I think the focus on obedience in Christian sects is based on the thought process that Christ has done his part, now it’s our turn. I can appreciate that. What do I have more control over? Christ’s sacrifice or my behaviors? It makes sense that we’d talk more about changing behaviors.
I do believe that there is more of a focus on obedience in our church, and here’s why. “Worthiness” permeates our culture. You can’t participate in ordinances (either on the giving or receiving end) unless you are deemed worthy. You can’t hold certain callings unless you are temple worthy. We have disciplinary councils. The youth are subject to periodic worthiness interviews. The adults are subject to yearly tithing settlements, which in a way become gauges for worthiness. “Member in good standing.” Generally speaking, we have labels for tiers of various commitment levels that we openly and regularly use without considering their impact (active, inactive, less active, doubter, member in good standing, non-member, investigator). The prosperity gospel is alive in the minds of many saints and really comes to bear in the mission culture where riches come in the form of converts.
Many of those things don’t happen in other churches and I think having a lay clergy makes a difference. In other Christian sects you’ve got a preacher, they are responsible for doing most of the stuff Mormons have to be “worthy” to do. Lay clergy is nice in that it gives people an opportunity to experience things that they perhaps wouldn’t get to experience in other churches but I think lay clergy also introduces the concept of competition. If I get called to a high profile calling it’s an obvious sign that god approves of me. How do I land a high profile calling? Through obedience, by being more obedient than other people that could also be tapped for the calling.
On my revised scale that accounts for Mormonism being less focused on obedience… ordinarily I’d give it somewhere around a seven, slightly above average, but all the measuring we do surrounding worthiness? I’ve got to bump it up at least one notch. Maybe an 8.
Mission culture?
That is a better scale, nibbler (although I don’t expect it to go below 5 from people here). I grew up in the church and don’t know what it is like for others. Just knowing some groups I observe like Amish, Baptist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, and Catholic people I’ve talked to, I have assumed it is fairly the same (5) with differences on what we are obedient to, but not less focus on obedience. The Bible is based on teachings of obedience. JW seem very obedient focused too, but I’ve never talked to anyone much to know.
I do see what beefster is saying about our flavor of it.
Would like to know what others see.
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