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I’ve tried expressing my views of obedience on the other thread (aptly titled “Obedience”). I didn’t want to hijack it (as swimordie often accuses me of doing – and rightly so
My daughter is 14 and 8/12ths. She really is a great girl and her and I have become closer these past few months as I have opened up to her on my new views that I feel comfortable sharing with her. Her testimony in the church is growing and I support that, although I think she needs to be humbled sometimes, I figure life will automatically help her with that so I try to just help her build self-esteem and keep her pointed in the right direction. Last Sunday we had our regular interview I hold monthly with her, and we again talked about living righteously to attend the temple, and that is her goal…that is what she wants.
Here is the issue: FSOY says no dating until 16. She really likes this 16 year old in the ward, and they talk/text/facebook all the time. They go to dances and hold hands and really like eachother.
The boys’ parents and the Young Men’s President are very against the two of them being together, because they are breaking the rules set out in the FSOY. They are putting a lot of pressure on the boy to break things off and to be more obedient (he told me he feels guilty and angry about it). The other priests also tease him alot about it. It makes my daughter upset and she feels everyone is talking about her, and thinks she is a bad person for not living the standards. She feels judged.
Our talk was a long and good one. I wanted her to know the rules are safety rules to help us learn to control ourselves, and chastity is a very important thing.
But she said they aren’t breaking rules. They aren’t dating, they just hang out and like each other (and hold hands and kiss when no one is looking)… I don’t know if that is dating or not, but I know I did that when I was 14, though I never went steady with anyone until I was 17. She also said they aren’t committing any sins, so she doesn’t understand the problem.
Here’s my problem:
1) I don’t know how to interpret “dating until 16” because I don’t know what “dating” is or isn’t – and so I’m more focused on teaching her to live the law of chastity and make good choices. Abstinence, not protection.
2) Others in the ward and the youth leaders are not talking to me about this, they are only talking to the boy and saying things that bother him and hurt my daughter because they don’t approve. From my perspective, he is doing nothing wrong…he is 16. Technically, the book doesn’t state, “wait until you’re 16 and then only date others who are 16”. To them, the problem is he is making my daughter break rules. But they don’t come talk to me about it.
3) If I am close to my daughter and approve with what she is doing, why do others care? Isn’t the church supposed to help families, not go around parents and place their own rules on my kids? If I don’t have a problem with the situation, why do they?
I’ve asked a few people why they care about this, and their responses are typical TBM responses: “It says in the FSOY not to date until their 16”. Then from there, they start going down a train of thought that is all assumptions and conjectures and judgments like:
-“she wont’ think dating is fun when she does turn 16”– I don’t think they know my daughter…believe me, she will still want to date when she’s 16. – “it will lead to sin because she’s starting early”– I have a serious problem with this message they are saying: why does waiting longer mean they will avoid sin later? Clearly they could just as well wait until 16 and then go crazy and go faster down a physical slope to sin. I also don’t appreciate their judging my daughter that she will “automatically” sin – do they not know how devoted she is to making it to the temple? Do they not hear her testimony and know what kind of girl she is? Why is it an automatic “she will sin because inevitably everyone who dates before 16 does”? What’s magic about the number 16? -“it is not a good example to other young girls to see your daughter breaking the rules”– I don’t know what to say about that, other than…too bad for you if you can’t teach your kids the principles of the gospel correctly and clear up their misconceptions. The example my daughter shows when she gets up to bear her testimony in sacrament meeting should be of more value than teaching your kids she is some kind of sinner, which she isn’t. (sorry, I get emotional about what people think of my daughter). – And of course, the almighty …
“It just says it in the handbook…so she should just do it to get blessings. Sometimes we don’t understand things, but we should just obey anyway“. Well, if she didn’t have parents teaching her right from wrong, or as parents we didn’t understand the law of chastity, than there could be some argument to this. However, she is following our directions and we are teaching her what is important…so I fail to see how this is anything other than blind obedience we are warned about. The main issue stems from a gray area around defining what is “dating” and what isn’t, is it really important to get into that with the YM president or bishop? To me, I just feel it is more important my daughter understands the law of chastity, its importance, and to let her have fun and enjoy her high school years in a good way. Right now, she is open with me and tells me most everything. I’d rather have her hanging out with this good kid from church than waiting until 16 and dating a loser with no morals. I have given a lot of thought and consideration…I just feel this is a classic case of letter of the law adherence for no justifiable reason.
I need to understand how best to approach this. I may setup an appointment with the bishop this Sunday, but I really hesitate to bother him with this.
– What are the important things about FSOY standards for me to teach my kids?– Is there a benefit from meeting with the YM President or the Bishop to understand their views on this or let them see my views and what we are teaching my daughter and how we feel about this?
– Should I show my emotions, and tell the adults how it makes the kids feel they are being told they are bad kids, when I know they aren’t?
Please help.
In my opinion, I think dating is when you pursue a romantic relationship with the opposite sex. The formal “going out on a date” in my mind comes sometimes as an after thought these days and I think sometimes this gets used as a justification. “well, he isn’t picking me up and paying for dinner, so we aren’t dating”. But you are spending a lot of time alone and sharing physical contact. If it walks like a duck……well, you get my drift. If she is kissing in the parking lot, and she is exploring a romantic attachment, then I would have to say for all intents and purposes she is already dating or at least walking awfully close to the line. And if the parents of this young man are against the relationship or maybe against the timing of the relationship, I feel that I as a parent have to support that. They know their son in ways the rest of us wouldn’t. I don’t doubt that he is prolly a good boy and that his feelings are sincere. I guess I do feel that teaching our boys and girls self control and boundaries and helping them wait until they are ready is a good thing. Just because they are “good” doesn’t mean they don’t still need the lessons. One must learn self control in order to weild the power of the sex drive properly. And I think these simple guidelines work together to weave the fabric of self respect and morals and all of it and I think these lesson bleed into other parts of their lives, not just with the opposite sex.
I think there is research that supports the idea that early dating activity does promote earlier sexual experimentation. I think parents have very good reasons to want their children to follow the FSOY guidelines. Heck. They even go so far as to encourage that dating should be group oriented and that coupling should be postponed. So when the coupling comes first, I can see their worries. My son is 11 and I can’t believe the pressure he is already under to get a girl friend and to act like he is dating her. His friend even use the lingo…”Dude, are you gonna ask her out?” Not that he even knows what that means completely.
I remember my parents always taught me not to let a boy cause me to lower my standards. I think this goes both ways. You may think this behavior is ok and you may trust your daughter and her maturity level and you might be absolutely right, that it is benign. But this boy has standards set by his parents and it is more important for him to honor his parents than compromise them for a girl, no matter how wonderful she is. Teens want everything NOW! I think there is wisdom in teaching them patience and self control and deference to personal parental preferences. If the boy learns to honor his parents, he will also learn to honor his wife.
It is my experience that self control/self respect builds self esteem more than indulging emotional desires. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I am saying that he should never speak to her again. Hope you can see what I am saying.
Ok. Enough of my blabberings.
Gosh that has got to be a tough one. I remember that age with hormones spewing out the pores. It’s a challenge, as a parent, to get any values across.
Putting myself in the young man’s shoes….I remember one young (14ish) ladie’s parents who, instead of banishing me from the premises, invited me over for dinner/board games/movies…..that seemed to be a workable compromise. I was about 15 and if they hadn’t done that….we probably would have sneaked around.
Just sayin….
I’m 53 and raising a 4-year-old grandaughter so if you figure it out…please pass it on.
well, heber, I wasn’t sure if I wanted my boys to go to mutual/seminary when they’re teenagers and now, I KNOW! 😆 😆 😆 jkPersonally, I made out with a few girls before I was 16, and it wasn’t going anywhere past that, so… everyone’s different.
Also, I know this is difficult, but you seem to be expending alot of thought on what others are saying, thinking, about the whole thing.
I think you’re doing exactly right: teaching your daughter the important principles and letting her learn (just like you said at the beginning about the humility thing). I know in your mind this dating issue is way bigger than the need to be a little humbled but, in reality, I see the process as being the same; teach her what she needs to know, and then support her with unconditional love.
Sorry that I’m just spewing “what you should do” drivel, but you’ve demonstrated by past insight that you may be more aware of how to handle this then you’re giving yourself credit for. fwiw.
Love ya, heber!
I have four daughters – ages 17-7. My only advice right now: I have been VERY open with my children about these things. I dated only my wife from the time she turned 16 (knew within a week of meeting her when I was 16 and she was 15 that I would marry her eventually), so I can’t insist that they follow EVERY recommendation exactly – but I can emphasize to them why I believe our relationship is so strong. Other than the exclusive dating, we followed the principles behind the rules exactly – and ended many dates behind the Provo Temple talking. It’s hard to get in trouble in that setting – and with that focus.
Having said that, I support the general principles of FSOY completely – and I also understand the concerns of her leaders totally. In many ways, they are 100% correct in their concerns – as a general rule. It’s the actions with which I have a problem, but most people aren’t good at nuance.
Quote:– What are the important things about FSOY standards for me to teach my kids?
That they are good standards – and that if you decide to go against one or more of them (as I did by dating my future wife exclusively) you need to realize the risks. Not following one might not be all that risky; the risk increases as the number of rules broken increases.Quote:– Is there a benefit from meeting with the YM President or the Bishop to understand their views on this or let them see my views and what we are teaching my daughter and how we feel about this?
ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY – especially given how they are reacting and the messages being sent – Bishop first, in private, then YW Pres and Bishop would be my suggestion.
Quote:– Should I show my emotions, and tell the adults how it makes the kids feel they are being told they are bad kids, when I know they aren’t?
I would go to the Bishop first and see how he responds. If you feel like you need to talk with the adults, do it individually and privately – making sure they know you respect their dilemma but that, ultimately, she is your daughter and you are talking with her openly about it. Ask them to back off and let you, as her father, be the one to talk with her about it. I would be VERY careful about “showing (your) emotions” – since they probably will respond in kind, turning it into a battle instead of a constructive discussion.
Okay, time for the young, wreckless, rebel to take a crack at it 
First, a very related story. When I went into my bishop and talked to him about my doubts, we talked about various rules and whatnot. He asked me if I agreed with the FSOY don’t-date-until-you’re-16 rule. I told him I thought it was stupid (well, in more words than that). He asked me what I thought we ought to teach the youth. I told him I thought it depends on the youth. Some teens will be more than capable of dating at age 14, others not until they’re 18. I told him we ought to teach the teens to know and understand when they’re ready to date instead of setting some arbitrary age. Some teens are wiser than others. My bishop didn’t seem to like this comment. In fact, I asked him this very question:
Heber13 wrote:What’s magic about the number 16?
There’s absolutely nothing magic about 16 and it’s foolish that this rule seems to have reached commandment status in your ward.As for me personally, I didn’t do anything outside the FSOY. I was like Ray, my idea of a date was going to the temple, and then talking on the temple grounds. I never kissed anyone until just before my mission, and only seriously dated 2 people in my whole life.
I think you expressed yourself well in your bulleted points, and it really seems to me like you already have your answer, but as someone said you seem to be wrapped up in what others are concerned about. I think this reflects more on them than on you. Chastity is important on several different levels, but as you pointed out, dating before 16 doesn’t mean there will be sexual experimentation. Even if Poppyseed is correct that there are studies indicating such, this doesn’t mean that
your daughterwill be more likely to experiment. You know by now that I’m a huge fan of letting people learn, grow, and make choices. You have given your daughter the tools she needs to make wise decisions. She understands that chastity is important, and she has her goals in place. Unless there is some serious problem (like she’s staying out until 2:00 a.m.) why not place your trust in her to make wise decisions and let the chips fall where they may? So what if she continues to hang out with, hold hands with, and even secretly kiss this boy? Who cares what others in the ward think? Additionally, imagine the growth that will take place for both you and your daughter if she knows you have placed your trust in her at the expense of what people in the ward will think. Is this not what Heavenly Father did for us? You have given her the principles, and the wisdom, now let her choose.
Quite honestly, I wouldn’t talk to the Bishop or the YM president, or anyone else (except your daughter). The FSOY is not accepted doctrine or commandment that is binding on you or your daughter like a covenant. It’s a set of suggestions, or guidelines. If people are concerned about the situation, let them talk to you directly about it. It sounds to me like you don’t think there’s any problem, so why give them the satisfaction of thinking that you do.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I guess that is just where I’m at right now…don’t care about little rules that seem arbitrary. It would be good to try to teach the kids the benefits of following that guideline, but it doesn’t seem critical right now…as long as we are trying to live right as a family, that’s what is most important. Also, thanks to those who reminded me to make sure I am not over-emphasizing what others think. Good reminder.
Those in the church who say to me, “But those guidelines come from the prophet, so it is important to be obedient” – I guess I just am focusing on being obedient to things that I can grasp right now, and let go of other stuff…buffet style baby steps.
The pamphlet IS NOT scripture. These are guidelines/ suggestions; albeit inspired one, BUT they are not covenants. I don’t think God is so shallow as to send someone to hell for dating at 14 or for having more than one ear-ring per ear. Stupid members forced these Pharisean rules because they made poor choices. Your daughter is NOT making poor choices. If they (the two kids) use their wisdom and reason instead of blindly following than they are doing fine. They are learning to make choices and to be good. They are being better than those who hold to the pamphlet for no other reason than it was church issued. Their dating isn’t going to keep them out of Heaven – the opposite actually. Dating and learning to control physicality is right and good NOT evil. You sound very involved in her life and showing a little trust will help her be good. She won’t want to disappoint you.
Have you talked to the boys parents? if they are okay with it and you are okay with it than the rest should butt out. If they do not than perhaps you should say something to the bishop about members interfering with your role as a parent. I think that the 10 commandments out weigh the pamphlet and that one has “honor thy father and thy mother.” Which your daughter and this boy are doing. Some people mature before their actual age and some are 40 year old teens. YOU are the Parents and YOU have final say.
I hate to say it, but perhaps a confrontation is needed. These others who are being hurtful are NOT being Christlike. HE does not hurt us, say derogatory things, etc. Heck His mother was about 12 years old when she had him…and how old is HF? JS was 12 when he went to the grove and met HF and Jesus. It’s not the age it’s the maturity of the mind.
I’m not trying to justify, but if someone did this to my daughter and her boyfriend who may not be a full and exclusive boyfriend I’d get medieval and I’d do it publicly because THEY are interfering with my God given right and responsibility to teach and raise my child. If they are doing/saying hurtful things for this what else are they saying/doing that is hurtful to a your daughter?
My DH just said that he would confront the agitators and say, “I’m sorry in what way did I indicate that your opinion mattered?” Support your daughter, that will have a better return in the end than caving to the Stepford Mormons. If her father is around perhaps have him help with this. He is her Priesthood authority and if he’s okay with it than the debate (that shouldn’t never have happened) is over.
I would also suggest inviting him over for dinner with your family to show support of his “dating” you daughter… ask him over publicly at church!
Ok. So why does the state say 16 is the age to drive or 21 the age to drink? I mean come on. I could have driven at 14 just like all my Idahoan friends. 
I think kids need some simple and clear boundaries sometimes. I mean 16 was a goal for me….it was something my mom and I could agree upon. I think sometimes these rules protect us from things we don’t see. I mean parents don’t always see around corners either. Do you really think our kids are harmed if we do wait til they are 16? Having said that I don’t think that the rule is suppose to trump the reasoning and wisdom of the parents as they follow the spirit. And I don’t think that parents should let down their guard after a kid is 16 either. I think sometimes kids should maybe even wait until they are older if they haven’t proven themselves trustworthy. And I think the pamphet is a tool ….. a help to parents. Is this so bad? Is this just unjustly confining in an age where sex is being slathered and spat over our kids wherever they go? Not to mention modern notions of morality….don’t get me started. And in a time where parents are scrambling for answers and practices that work?
Sometimes it is ok to have a few rules in the church. And we don’t have to get all stuck in them or miss the point either. Do you think that when Christ came to fulfill the law that he got rid of it completely? Do you think Christ didn’t support the law when it did have purpose? His criticism of the pharasees was that they didn’t get it! Not when the law was instituted….and not when it was fulfilled. Their hearts were far from him!
No the booklet isn’t gospel doctrine but can we really say there is no wisdom in following it? Can we really say that it isnt’ inspired or supported by God? Not everything that is a rule makes us like the pharasees and not every parent who chooses to follow the rules is missing the Christian mark and not everyone who follows the rule needs it even! But God still wants us to follow His rules! That is the principle of obedience. He doesn’t always say why. He doesn’t alway give imperical evidence to support His eternal position.
Yeah… I think there is some breathing room here. And I am sure Heber will make the best decision for his daughter and his family. I don’t think this needs to be made into a federal issue with the ward…..even though our outrage makes us feel like it sometimes. I think these situations are better handled with patience and long suffering and, forgive the codependcy speak…..detachment. What would God have Heber teach his daughter? How does God feel the pamphlet would best be used in his household?
Antiquarian wrote:Your daughter is NOT making poor choices.
No she isn’t, she does have a mind of her own from time to time, but in a good way. I think she has a good head on her shoulders and she makes good choices. She knows we love her because we trust her This has been what struck me as bothersome for a while, she feels she is being told she is making bad choices and is not doing what she should be when she goes to church…but she doesn’t feel she has done anything wrong. I like the idea that we have a very open communication style and she tells us all. Ward members make her feel bad, and she doesn’t like that, and I don’t like it but it is just part of life…others will say what they want. There are a few good YW leaders who ask her about the relationship and don’t make her feel bad…for that, I’m grateful because she feels they really care. Then there are others running to the bishop apalled at the situation…those create resentful feelings for my daughter. She is learning a lot by the actions of the adults in the ward. Good or bad. I have chosen to let that be a good lesson for her, when we talk regularly about it.
Antiquarian wrote:Have you talked to the boys parents? if they are okay with it and you are okay with it than the rest should butt out. If they do not than perhaps you should say something to the bishop about members interfering with your role as a parent.
I had lunch Friday with the father of this boy, he’s a good friend of mine. He and his wife don’t particularly like it, because although their son is 16, he is influencing a 14 yr old girl to break her standards, and they think that is wrong. I said we’ve discussed it in our home, we are focusing on teaching my daughter important lessons, but support her in liking this boy who really is a great straight-arrow kind of kid. I’m glad my daughter really likes good mormon boys. He said it is just that she isn’t 16, but after lots of fights in their home, they’ve decided to let him choose, but they have reservations. I asked why they have concerns. He said, “Just because the pamphlet says not to date until 16.”
I’m sorry, I just don’t believe that we have to live our lives that way. “Just because the manual says so” is not worth it for me or how I teach my kids. While I agree with Poppyseed, there are rules that are good ideas, and obedience is important, when a little rule is creating disharmony in our home for no justifyable reason, there are more important lessons to be learned than 100% obedience “just because the pamphlet says so.” That doesn’t mean I’ll let her drive…that is a law and so she must obey that. FSOY are guidelines…not laws. Different parts of the FSOY have different emphasis, and we should go by the spirit to guide us on how these should be taught to kids.
The boy’s father also mentioned another reason it is a problem…someone called him last week saying they say the two of them together alone at the mall holding hands, and they know she’s not 16. This makes me feel more protective of my daughter and resentful of ward members butting in for 2 reasons…1) they don’t call me about it; 2) why are they making calls at all? If it was a concerned friend just saying, “Hey,just wanted you to know I saw your daughter” – that would be nice. But it has been more than that as the disapproval by YM leaders and other adults have been ongoing and even though I know people just talk, it just makes my daughter feel bad and that is where I’ve decided to act.
So i have set up an appointment with the bishop to let him know we are supporting my daughter and teaching her true principles. I will see what his guidance and direction is.
Antiquarian wrote:I would also suggest inviting him over for dinner with your family to show support of his “dating” you daughter… ask him over publicly at church!
We have him over all the time, watch movies, have dinner with us, play ping pong…our whole family has also gone to watch his lacrosse games with our daughter. He has come over to help me move heavy things all the time. A real good kid. Another reason why we are supportive…we like her taste in good mormon boys and that he is comfortable around our family.
The only hangup is that she was born 2 years too late…we have decided that we can’t control that. If she was sneaking around behind our backs, or doing things that were wrong, I’d be handling things totally differently. No one I’ve talked to has any problems with the 2 of them as good kids, except the book says 16…and some people just can’t let go of that. I can.
You know, I grew up on the East Coast, and now live in Colorado. I find the closer we get to Utah, the more I see this kind of mentality in the church. Rules become hard-fast and heavily stressed…and some people can’t let them go. This situation is a small example…but I think it is one example of the mentality of some members in our ward that forget to care about the individual, and feel justified in meddling in other’s affairs because they think they are right. Even well intentioned, I see how it makes my girl feel. I guess I appreciate their zeal, and congratulate them for walking an undeviating course, and
I think the ward benefits from some families being 100% letter of the law obedient, but the ward needs others who care more about the individuals and can be more lenient on rules…I guess that will be my contribution to the ward, or at least to my family.Heber13 – wow, I am flummoxed. The fact that people are such buttinskies is just flooring me. I can’t imagine what possesses a person to become the Gladys Kravitz of the ward other than sheer boredom and Church Lady-like self-righteousness. Kooky stuff. I have a 14-yr old son, and we had a discussion with him about this. He is “friends” with a non-LDS girl. We know they have a romantic relationship. We talked about the guidelines, but in reality, both of us had kissed people before age 16. 16 was just when “dating” was allowed, going out in a car with a person of the opposite sex, spending money, etc. Holding hands in the mall or kissing in the park? It’s close to the line, but if you start throwing up too many obstacles you end up with a Romeo and Juliet situation. We have to stop forcing our kids to make a stand against us.
Quote:– What are the important things about FSOY standards for me to teach my kids?
There’s a benefit to a kid being able to say “I don’t date until I’m 16.” They can avoid having to date someone they don’t like. They can avoid committing to a GF/BF before they are ready for that sort of thing, even if their friends are doing that kind of thing. It gives them a way to keep their options open.
As to the adults in your ward, I would point out to them that when you go around talking about a YW as if her reputation is tarnished, you may be setting her up to really tarnish her reputation. She may figure, all is lost anyway. Everyone thinks I’m a bad kid, so I guess I am one. That’s why nosy buttinskies should shut their pie-holes. Plus, isn’t there anything on TV? What is up with these people??
The other thing I would add is that the real indicator to whether your kids are going to have problems is more likely whether you or your wife did. There seems to be a genetic predisposition to certain things. These things tend to cycle from generation to generation. You sound less worried based on that, so good for you!
hawkgrrrl wrote:Heber13 – wow, I am flummoxed. The fact that people are such buttinskies is just flooring me. I can’t imagine what possesses a person to become the Gladys Kravitz of the ward other than sheer boredom and Church Lady-like self-righteousness. Kooky stuff.
I know. I honestly believe it is their reaction for being youth leaders or parents of a youth trying to teach their kids standards, and not knowing how to tolerate others who have different interpretations or situations. I believe they are so focused on that, they are forgetting about the message they are sending my daughter, and me as a fellow parent in the ward.
hawkgrrrl wrote:16 was just when “dating” was allowed, going out in a car with a person of the opposite sex, spending money, etc. Holding hands in the mall or kissing in the park? It’s close to the line, but if you start throwing up too many obstacles you end up with a Romeo and Juliet situation. We have to stop forcing our kids to make a stand against us.
Exactly! As background, my oldest daughter who is 16 now never dated until her recent birthday. We taught both our girls to avoid the “official” date or the exclusive relationship. The older was fine with it, in fact, she used it often to tell boys at school who asked her out that she was mormon and couldn’t until 16…it was a nice way of saying “sorry, but I’m not interested in you”. Now she is 16, she has a boy in the ward who has taken her out on dates, but his standards aren’t that high and she is uncomfortable to be alone with him. He’s kind of a jock and I know he has had some problems with other girls at school (via grapevine, of course). But I’m not one to judge him or his family…I just want my girl aware of the risks and she is keeping things cool as she should.
It is ironic to me that relationship that I’m most concerned about keeping the law of chastity is more with my daughter who is 16 and can date, but the priesthood holder courting her has lower standards…whereas people in the ward seem to be focusing on my younger daughter because they know she isn’t 16, yet in my eyes, she is on much safer ground knowing the righteous young man who likes her.
That is the other side of the story that rubs at me…people can focus on rules and ages because that is something you can see or measure, when they say nothing about those with “hidden” issues that are more significant in my eyes.
hawkgrrrl wrote:As to the adults in your ward, I would point out to them that when you go around talking about a YW as if her reputation is tarnished, you may be setting her up to really tarnish her reputation. She may figure, all is lost anyway. Everyone thinks I’m a bad kid, so I guess I am one.
Thank you Hawkgrrrl….I think there is great wisdom in this and something I am really concerned about. As I said, we taught both our girls to keep the standard in the FSOY, but when my youngest came to me with her situation and how she wants to deal with it, I really felt prompted I should take her side and tell her that I am 100% behind her and support her because I trust her and know she is a good girl, especially how she came to me about it responsibly. The more I tell her that I know she’s a good girl, the more I think she’ll act that way. It may not be what I think is ideal (like I said, I didn’t date until I was 17)…but it is what I felt was right in this specific situation with her. I don’t want her to be Juliet and running around behind my back…not good for her self-esteem and not good for her safety.
Sometimes the rules are good to have as a general rule or goal for the most people, but when specific situations present themselves, the wise guideline of “16” is less important to me than my daughter and her growth. I hope the bishop will support me in this and help the YM leaders back off.
Don’t take this the wrong way, hawkgrrl, but I’m flummoxed that you’re flummoxed. In the inner-mountain west, there’s enough critical mass of mormons that what Heber and his daughter are going through is quite common. There’s hair-nazis in my ward too.
I’m not minimizing it because it’s a real problem with real consequences.
And, I wanted to echo your sentiments, hawkgrrl. Great insight! All that you said is so important and relevant.
@Heber:
Good luck, buddy. I love what you’re attempting to do: follow the “spirit” and recognize that it is that “light” that should guide us, I’m sure your daughter will recognize it and will be grateful. If not today or tomorrow, then someday.
Heber, I know 21 is very different than 14-16, but my oldest son had to choose between a mission and marriage to his WONDERFUL, non-Mormon girlfriend. I am happy that he chose a mission, and that she is supporting him, but I would have supported him if he had chosen to marry her instead. In the end, I did the best I could to teach him how to think for himself and make his own decisions – and I couldn’t back away from that if he had chosen differently than I did. (His mom waited for me with an engagement ring on her finger – starting at the beginning of her senior year in high school.) I still belief STRONGLY in the general wisdom of the standards, but I also believe even more strongly in teaching them correct principles and letting them govern themselves. So, again, my main advice: Make sure the two of you are communicating – and don’t be afraid to say something like,
Quote:“I really love Brother and/or Sister _________________ for their sincere concern for us, but even good people can be buttheads and say stupid things. They also will teach very good things – so let’s keep talking about all of it.”
Heber13 wrote:You know, I grew up on the East Coast, and now live in Colorado. I find the closer we get to Utah, the more I see this kind of mentality in the church. Rules become hard-fast and heavily stressed…and some people can’t let them go. This situation is a small example…but I think it is one example of the mentality of some members in our ward that forget to care about the individual, and feel justified in meddling in other’s affairs because they think they are right. Even well intentioned, I see how it makes my girl feel. I guess I appreciate their zeal, and congratulate them for walking an undeviating course, and
I think the ward benefits from some families being 100% letter of the law obedient, but the ward needs others who care more about the individuals and can be more lenient on rules…I guess that will be my contribution to the ward, or at least to my family.
Well, you’ll be able to sympathize with those of us who actually spent our whole life growing up in Utah. It sheds a little bit of light on why I’m here, and why so many get here who were born and raised in Utah. Something about an unhealthy worldview or something!!
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