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hawkgrrrl wrote:
The other thing I would add is that the real indicator to whether your kids are going to have problems is more likely whether you or your wife did. There seems to be a genetic predisposition to certain things. These things tend to cycle from generation to generation. You sound less worried based on that, so good for you!
Amen to this. I just finished a psychology course and one of the surprises I got was that we parents love to flatter ourselves that somehow what we do has a big impact on the way our kids turn out. The evidence seems to point to the idea that the only major influence parents have is through genetics. “Other environment” (that is not “local environment” meaning family life) is the other big player in development, and your daughter is already heavily in the church.Oh, and hawkgrrrl, can I just say that I feel so privileged to be able to read your posts. I universally smile, and more often than not, burst out laughing.
Old-Timer wrote:Heber, I know 21 is very different than 14-16, but my oldest son had to choose between a mission and marriage to his WONDERFUL, non-Mormon girlfriend. I am happy that he chose a mission, and that she is supporting him, but I would have supported him if he had chosen to marry her instead. In the end, I did the best I could to teach him how to think for himself and make his own decisions – and I couldn’t back away from that if he had chosen differently than I did. (His mom waited for me with an engagement ring on her finger – starting at the beginning of her senior year in high school.)
I still belief STRONGLY in the general wisdom of the standards, but I also believe even more strongly in teaching them correct principles and letting them govern themselves.
Absolutely brilliant, Ray!!
I am really appreciating this thread. I think I am recognizing where my own Utah upbringing tied me into knots yet how greatful I am for ideas like the “teach them principles …..govern themselves” idea. And how people are more important that practices. Thank you for all of your comments. This conversation is actually helping me sort thru some of the inequities in my thinking. Perhaps we as a collective LDS group are still trying to learn the lessons Christ was trying to teach to the jewish establishment way back in the day. Perhaps we err on either side of it — leaving the law or disvaluing it completely or stumbling over it because we hold on to tight in blindness. Again, I feel the importance of posturing oneself in balance. I wish we talked more in the church about balance. And I wish we were kinder to each other as we each make our individual choices. We can’t make a decision for ourselves about “how” we are going to obey and then legislate that for everyone else. With so many people in the world (and church) and all the individual personalities and needs, I think God tries to meet the needs of his children even if that means stepping outside the law for a moment. And I don’t think obedience was designed to conform … as if conforming was the definition of conversion. It seems that people of principle are obedient yet unconfined. It’s more like they are focused and directed and they know where they are going. The law seems to facilitate their possibilities
Heber, I was reading about how you have the kids to your house for various activities. I love that! It’s like you are involved in your daughters life AND providing some supervision. It doesn’t sound like the kids need to hide around because you haven’t given them a need too. And I think that is a good thing considering that dating is an unsupervised activity. Perhaps you are finding a way to bridge the gap without alienating your daughter. How does the boy’s parents feel about creating some casual supervision on their side of things? Sounds like they have your daughters interests at heart too and they don’t want to be part of something that might hurt her.
But I will say that I wonder if it is hard for parents to differentiate between what is good for their kids and what their kids want just because they want it. It certainly is a delicate balancing act at times and I think parents are sometimes wary of the grey middle ground because they don’t’ want to send mixed messages and compromise their parental position. So they find safety in the guideline. No parent wants to be guilty of being manipulated by their kids.
Quote:sometimes the rules are good to have as a general rule or goal for the most people, but when specific situations present themselves, the wise guideline of “16” is less important to me than my daughter and her growth.
I love this. It smacks of a loving and present father. I love the guideline too. When I was 14, I looked like I was 17 and the boys took notice. But I wasn’t ready for all the attention and I was an unsuspecting target. I thought all LDS boys had pure intensions. It’s ok …. you can laugh. I think that the guideline was a gift to me and my parents. It gave me a defensive border. I don’t think my parents knew how to parent like you are doing. They did use the standard and they helped me adhere to it in various positive ways . But in the same breath, they let me go to a school dance the month before I turned 16 too because they knew I was ready and we all felt fine about it. So they weren’t so straight they were crooked. I guess I am saying that there is a way to be strict/respectful with the law without losing ones balance. And I think that there is value in teaching principly based obedience at the same time we are trying to meet individual needs. Do we teach our kids to obey only until our desires or circumstances change? How do we teach them to discipline themselves to a higher power properly? I think we can and should compromise while negotiation solutions to our problems but I do see danger here too. I see this play out with tithing concerns among other things. Financial problems aren’t necessarily solved by compromising the 10% rule. I am not sure parents see this dating situation as anything different.
Poppyseed wrote:I guess I am saying that there is a way to be strict/respectful with the law without losing ones balance. And I think that there is value in teaching principly based obedience at the same time we are trying to meet individual needs.
Well said, Poppyseed. I totally agree, the balance is critical, and more difficult than just quoting a rule and hiding behind that rule, but that effort to figure out the balance I think is what makes a big difference.I often feel like Tom Haws when he expressed his feelings in dealing with his daughter…sometimes afterwards I wonder if I did the right thing in the heat of the moment…I guess you just do the best you can and that’s all you can do.
Coincidentally, the other night my daughter broke our curfew rule and I really came down hard on her. She’s grounded now and I took her precious cell phone away (ouch…that gets her attention).
I guess I don’t know if I painted a picture that I give in all the time, I really don’t (although my girls know they have a soft spot in my heart – my boys know they are expected to behave!)…in fact, we’re pretty strict…just not about things that I don’t think will matter in the long run (I’m a regular Dr.Pepper drinker too! oooh
😮 ). But the rules we do set, she knows I’m serious about. It is definitely a balance of knowing when to teach obedience and when to teach love. Christ showed that perfect example in the NT, it is just really hard to know sometimes the right way. But I really felt inspired regarding my daughter’s situation…so I stick to that feeling. I want them growing up confident, not living in fear.Heber13 wrote:I want them growing up confident, not living in fear.
That sentence is so profoundly important, it’s hard to put it in words. Thanks, Heber.
As an update, my bishop called me in to talk to him last night. I kinda wondered what about. Turns out some have mentioned to him about my daughter (age 14) “dating” a 16-year old in the ward, and it is not setting a good example for the younger girls. He was very caring and loving, not at all condemning, but clearly I could tell he does not think the youth should be dating before 16. I liked his approach though, because he started talking about how there is such a gray area on what really is dating and what isn’t today for kids. As I explained to him in our home we have stressed the need to stay close and keep the communication open, and I have felt strongly that needing to relax on this standard and teach my daughter correct principles was more important than becoming a rulesy dad and laying down the letter of the law with strict punishments, he supported me and was glad I’m being active in her life.
In fact, he said he respected me, since he has seen (and visited with) many adults that still refer back to problems they experienced in their youth when their parents were so strict, that it scarred them and left them feeling rules were more important than bonds of love, and as adults, they still struggle with this to this day.
That was a real reassuring thing to me to hear. That is what I felt most strongly about…making sure I’m teaching my kids limits, but being willing to let go of small things (For Strength of Youth standards) in a specific circumstance where I knew my daughter just needed love and support to keep her from rebelling and doing more damage.
My bishop is a good guy. But it does sting a little to hear others in the ward are going to the bishop about my daughter. I guess I’m just protective. We will hold to this line…allow her to date this boy this time and wait to see what happens. However, we have already warned her that other rules are agreed up front (no piercings and no bikinis, for example) and we will not be bending on those rules, as we think she still needs to know there are limits and as long as we can talk about it together and agree when there are good reasons for things we will obey, than there are no problems. I’m sure she’ll test us on this, but at least we’ve estblished our house rules and I’ve told the bishop to support us on it.
Your bishop sounds like a good man. I hope he tells everyone to mind their own business, but that is a lot to expect. Even if that doesn’t happen, it’s good to hear about your conversation. Heber13 wrote:In fact, he said he respected me, since he has seen (and visited with) many adults that still refer back to problems they experienced in their youth when their parents were so strict, that it scarred them and left them feeling rules were more important than bonds of love, and as adults, they still struggle with this to this day.
Obedience vs. love: exhibit 1.
Did the bishop say how he would handle the rest of the nay sayers? I am glad you two spoke. This sounds like a really really good discussion.
Poppyseed wrote:Did the bishop say how he would handle the rest of the nay sayers?
No, he didn’t. He understands my position, but tells me it creates a problem for the youth leaders and other parents who are trying to teach their kids the standards.I keep it all in perspective. While clearly a few others don’t agree I’m handling it correctly, I tell myself it is not like everyone in the ward is going around talking about it, I’m sure its just a few people that have a hard time explaining to their kids the standard when my daughter isn’t setting an example. But, hey…that isn’t my problem and there are more important things to worry about it.
The YM President talked to me after sacrament meeting today, and said they plan to keep up the pressure on this priest age boy because they do not think it is right for him to be dating a 14 year old. He said, “It goes against everything we are teaching the youth about standards.” That was hard to hear, because it just reinforces to me that people place the rule above the individuals. My response to him was that it was not a sin, my daughter is not sinning, the priest boy is not sinning. Now, I know there are other kids in the youth program who are having their problems with chastity and the word of wisdom…and it is not my place to go around telling youth leaders and the bishopric about them…and I would hope others would not judge my daughter either. It is tempting for me during discussions like this with people to tell them the background of our family crisis and how it impacts our kids…but I can’t go there. I just wish others would not get so hung up on “no dating until your 16” and instead care more about important things like spiritual growth and Christ-like love and the worth of souls. My daughter is focused on going to the temple for an eternal family someday…and we will continue to focus on that.
I think today was the first day I can remember when I can honestly say, I understand how it feels when people are treated poorly by ward members and it makes them feel they want to walk away and have nothing further ever to do with the church. But I didn’t allow myself to entertain the thought. I need to keep things in perspective and not blow this out of proportion or let it overshadow the other positive things we like about the church and how it helps our kids. Besides, I’m pretty stubborn, and others can’t make me feel bad about the church unless I let them. Instead, I just chalk it up to a situation where I feel fine about how I’m dealing with my family, and others disagree. That is fine, let them disagree. On the other hand, I am ready to defend my daughter’s honor if ever needed to. However, with the support of the bishop, I really don’t feel I ever really need to. It would be nice if the leaders could help shield my daughter from judgmental comments by others, but if they won’t I can do that. It is our choice to allow my daughter to deal with this, so we will just have to deal with the consequences of that decision.
Church bummed me out today.
Wow, Heber, I’ve gotta give you a big “attaboy” for hanging in there, staying present and not getting sucked into the codependent machine. You’re a great example to me as a father and I’m learning from you in every post. Thank you.
My son (11) plays football. This is our second year in the league. I am still amazed how emotional the whole thing is. SO MUCH pressure! My kids can play soccer or T-ball and it just isn’t the same deal. So much more laid back. We go, we play, we go home. BUt this…..HOLY COW! Something is VERY different about the culture of football …. and I haven’t even started on the whole political thing or how parents can completely lose it! Thank goodness when we get a coach who can keep his eye on the ball and remind the boys that winning isn’t everything and that having fun in the learning process is okay. I seem to hate the coaches that have to win at the expense of things… AND the coaches that are so nice they don’t teach the boys how to play in discipline. There is a lot of wisdom in the middle ground. Anyway……Maybe it is like that in the church. There is a culture there and it is very entrenched and my little voice prolly won’t change it much. Sometimes we just have to go with it and work with the rules of the game and the people who are our leaders. I don’t spose we are gonna find any group that doesn’t judge. Do you? This is just the way with sheep. Thank goodness for true principles.
I would think the only people that are important here are the parents of the boy and the parents of the girl.
I Like what John D says about things not being black and white. That with most things there are a shades of gray. I personally feel that this sentiment very much applies to this subject. I was married at 19 and am so glad that I did not abide by the FSOU pamphlet dating age rules. If I had that would have given me only 3 years in my entire life of dating. Oh my gosh, how sad would that have been!!!!
I was pretty socially mature and I started dating at around 14. When I met my husband I was 18 and really felt like I had found someone special based on my experience over the previous few years.( still very naive but extremely lucky that it worked) The church sets up an idealistic situation where the expectation is for a return missionary to marry very soon after their mission at 21. This then puts their potential marriage partners ages somewhere between 17- 21 ( very few marry older girls) So the actual dating years are so few, even less for the boys who are on their missions for 2 of them.
I have a lot of friends whose marriages have failed and feel that part of the problem was that they basically married the first LDS person that they properly dated. And that either one or other became frustrated and felt that they had missed out on their youth by marrying young and having no experience of others or got to truly know there own likes and dislikes.
It kinda goes back to the ice cream analogy( i use this in a completely non sexual way) if you’ve only had vanilla you will only know that thats what you like. If you have had so few years to try how are you ever gonna find out what flavour you like? Worst still if you never find out you may never appreciate that what you have is the best flavor ever but since you didn’t try the others you never truly appreciate it. Does this make sense to any one?
1topen wrote:Does this make sense to any one?
Yes, that makes perfect sense. And thank you for sharing your experience on this.
While I can say that I think there is wisdom to waiting until you’re 16 to date, go slow, date around and have fun and not get seriuos, set standards and live by them…all of that I think is great and something to shoot for. I would also hope my daughters enjoy college and look for overseas learning experiences or internships in workplaces to get a good feel for professional parts of life as much as relationships. I would hope they wait until they are 22-25 before really wanting to get married, because there is so much time in life, there are some things while young you don’t need to sacrafice to get married so young. But I can’t rule their hearts.
Just as 1topen has had a successful experience at getting married before 20, it could happen to my daughters too, and all I want is for them to be happy…not pressured to live life by strict age limits that may apply to some and not to others.
Just as I would never tell 1topen you were “wrong” to date when 14 and wrong to get married at 19…I don’t appreciate leaders in my ward telling my kids that. They can believe what they want…but back off of my family and what you think is right and wrong for us. That is the point that is bothering me in this situation. FSOY should be guidelines…not taken to the point they are commandments and treated as sin. My daughter is not sinning by dating at 14, and I get even more bothered by those who judge her that she is heading down a path to sin because of this.
Thanks again for sharing your views, 1topen.
I had an epiphany in SM today while listening to yet another talk on follow the prophet no matter what. I now understand one of the reasons that the dogma/doctrine is so stringent. It’s because everyone’s a volunteer. There’s no paid clergy. As such, you could have four or five different people teaching your kids in various stages of primary, etc. in a given year. If they all brought their own unique perspective to the various lessons, kids could get rather confused.
Now, personally, I would love that. I would much rather my kids be confused at church than certain. Just seems more healthy.
But, I think this may have application here to this situation, heber. fwiw.
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