Obedience to For Strength of Youth pamphlet

[Anonymous]

Thanks Swim. Good thoughts for me to remember. Yes, since everyone is volunteering, it leaves my kids to be taught by our neighbors, not by professionals, and some of that confusion leads to good discussions in our home after church, where my daughter says she learns more than when she is at church (which is the way it should be, IMO).

I can respect others are doing their best to teach, and I know there are volunteers that really care about my kids and I’m thankful for that. However, I see some that are crossing the line from caring about my kids and more caring about the rules and that they have problems teaching their kids the importance of rules if they allow anyone to break the rules, and so it seems to go back to them for selfish reasons, not really for the benefit of the youth they are teaching. That is my problem. When I see the leaders trying to “look good” or be righteous that they lose tolerance and fail to see the bigger picture. This isn’t a major issue, but has application for other things I often wish ward members were more tolerant of as well…this is just one example.

I’ve said my piece on this subject. I thank all of you for your input. I’m really ok with it and am not holding grudges…just don’t agree with the way some volunteers handle things, and that will likely always be my experience in church, just as my ideas aren’t always appreciated by others in the ward. So we all get along despite our differences…that’s ok with me.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Just as I would never tell 1topen you were “wrong” to date when 14 and wrong to get married at 19…

You know what Heber I was wrong to marry at 19, but since I did I was darn glad that I dated at 14! If I had my time again I would not have done it. Yes it worked, yes I am still very happily married. BUT it is a fluke that it worked, I have friends who married at 19 they are all divorced now. It has been hard at times. I think its great that you are instilling in your daughters the desire to go to university, study and have some life experience first. It is important that they feel strongly about their own personal need for this, or they might be pulled into the unspoken Mormon expectation of a very early marriage. The point that I was making in my post is that the ‘church’, the For strength of Youth pamphlet and general Mormon dogma is such that girls are generally marrying very young to return missionaries. I was a victim ( Ok a bit strong) of this expectation. You only have to ask the average non married mormon girl of 25 and see how desperate they are to be married!!

[Anonymous]

1topen wrote:

You know what Heber I was wrong to marry at 19, but since I did I was darn glad that I dated at 14!

Thanks for that clarification, 1topen. I may print this out and have my girls read it. However, I would still not tell you or anyone else they are wrong for their choices…those are your choices and you live with the consequences. There is less “wrong” and “right” to timing of things than there just is different paths that result from the choices, and lead to the next choices which can lead to consequences you would want or not want…but not everyone dating before 16 will go into sin, and not everyone married before 20 will be miserable, and not everyone married after 20 will be married happily-ever after.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ll share it with my girls.

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, the average marriage age for Mormon women is 21, and for Mormon men it is 23. The line of demarcation for divorce rising exponentially is 21, so the average Mormon woman and man marry AFTER the standard “danger point” has passed. The Church itself doesn’t encourage marriage straight out of high school, and it doesn’t encourage marriage immediately after a mission. I think an accurate statement of official encouragement would be something like, “Don’t postpone marriage for purely selfish reasons, and don’t postpone or limit your child-bearing years for purely selfish reasons. Otoh, get an education. Did we mention, get an education. While you’re at it, get an education.”

Culture is one thing; official encouragement is quite another. It’s just SO hard to separate them, especially in high-concentration areas where marriage turns into almost a competition, and that is the most frustrating thing to me. However, it’s not a Mormon issue, since I’ve seen it everywhere I’ve lived. It’s a biological / evolutionary issue – and, among somewhat conservative religious populations, the average LDS Church marriage age actually is quite late. Seriously, those who are active believers in other conservative religions tend to marry younger than the LDS average age – largely because they tend to be sexually active sooner, don’t use contraception and still tend to believe in the concept of shotgun weddings.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know why this continues to be such an issue for me, perhaps my daddy instincts of protected my daughters kicks in, but this continues to be an issue in my ward and it really bothers me.

Today in YW 3rd hour meetings, the MiaMaids advisor lectured the girls on the FSOY standard of not dating until 16. She started with, “Now I know some of your families have different rules about this, but several parents have brought it to our attention that many of you feel it is ok to date before 16, and that we just need to teach you and remind you that the prophet has told us to wait until 16, so I just want to remind you of what the prophet has said.”

Ironically, my daughter broke up with her boyfriend and isn’t dating anyone. It is simply the idea that dating is ok that bothers other people.

I wouldn’t have a problem if the leaders taught the FSOY as it is contained in the pamphlet, and bore testimony of being obedient to it. That is what they are called to do. But the way it continues to be presented (presented as “you’re not following the rules, and you are being watched to see if you do or not by others in the ward”) is just not right in my opinion. I’ve had a few confrontations with other parents about this already, but it almost seems they’ve become even more vocal since I explained my position. I know they don’t approve. Frankly, I don’t care. But the fact that they care and keep making my daughter feel judged (how she described it to me after church) is what really, really bothers me and I just don’t think it is right.

We’re trying to make it a learning exercise, telling her she will always run into people she disagrees with in life, so just keep doing what you think is right and things will take care of themselves. She’s funny though, she told me that if people are really that interested in her and her choices, let’s at least have some fun with it. She said she wants to start some rumors that she’s dating a senior in high school who smokes (she’s not, but she just thinks it would be fun to give people something to talk about). 😈 We had a laugh about it which is a good, healthy way to deal with things I think. We’re glad she continues to talk to us about her feelings and we can tell her not to worry or make it too big a deal, but honestly, I know for teenage girls that what others say about them really is a big deal in their world. My daughter told us it makes her WANT to go date more just to tick people off … but we reminded her that isn’t the right attitude either. She agreed, but I can’t deny that feeling that it does make you want to rebel when you feel others are more concerned about rules than about the person….ESPECIALLY when she isn’t even dating or doing anything wrong.

Does anyone have any more advice on if I should approach the leaders again, or if at this point we just let it go? I just don’t like my daughter feeling like she is judged. It makes me think, a current trend around here now is many parents pull their kids out of high school and do “on-line” or homeschooling. I wonder if we can do “homechurching”??? Is that an option? 🙄 I’m not serious…but at times I wonder if that wouldn’t be a good option to have. :

[Anonymous]

Let it go.

I don’t have any better advice, but letting go is the beginning of charity – and that’s the most important thing for you and your daughter.

Let it go – just make sure you explain to your daughter why you are letting it go.

[Anonymous]

Oh Heber, you are a good dad. You did what you thought was best at the time. Be at peace with that. Its too bad the leaders are not just teaching principles. Seems like they have added a little personal vendetta edge onto their comments. I suppose they are doing the best they can too.

Just wondering if this might be a good opportunity to process the whole dating experience with your daughter. The “what did you learn” and “what did the spirit teach you thru this” stuff. Hopefully this experience can help her figure out where your values end and hers start to stand firm on their own. Knowing how involved you are, you sound like you are pretty much in the know. My son doesn’t tell me anything. I learn by listening to his friends talk on the way home from football practice. So far my son has “broken up” and “gotten back together” with his cute little girlfriend twice. (they are in the 6th grade)

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the support. I am letting it go.

Friday I took my little girl out to dinner and a movie, just the 2 of us. So I guess if people want to know who she’s dating, she can say she still goes on dates with her dad…and we’re proud of that.

This issue has gone the rounds in our home…time to let it go and live the principles. Thanks for the responses and the support.

[Anonymous]

Well, another chapter in my FSOY issues with my kids.

I was going to start a new support thread, and then I remembered this one, and figured I’d open it up again for discussion, because I do need support. It was helpful to go back and reread so many good comments.

For the most part, since last Sept, I have followed Ray’s advice…let it go, told my daughter we are letting it go, and continue to have monthly discussions/interviews with my girls on how they are doing. My daughter who is not 16 yet who was dating, broke up months ago and since has not dated anyone, and she has found it so refreshing and has been so much happier that she loves not dating. She actually wants to wait until 16. I think she has learned some good things through her choices.

However, Youth Standards night is coming up. And last Tuesday the young men leaders made my daughter cry with some comments they made. The youth group often gets together outside of church functions and they have movie nights. Many times 14-15 year olds are invited. Sometimes some of them that like each other hold hands or sit next to each other. Some parents don’t like this. Some parents don’t care. The YM President continues to call parents to let them know what their kids have been seen holding hands or kissing at school or other places…and wants them to know that other kids in the ward see their example and that it violates the church standards.

The bishop and YM president have decided that at Standards Night, they are going to make it clear that “Pairing up” in any setting is the same as dating, and that movie nights are not approved anymore because that is happening too much. And so my daughter was told she can’t go to any movie nights anymore (because she’s 15) or have movie nights at our home anymore. It hurt her feelings, because she isn’t doing anything wrong. We talked through it.

So, while I’ve gone these rounds before with our ward leaders and they understand my position on this, and I am trying to support them as much as I can, I think I have to draw boundaries here and tell the bishop what I think before next Sunday when some things might be said in a Standards Meeting.

Especially coming off of the last conference where there was emphasis on the family and the responsibility for parents to teach children, and the church support families…I feel I must tell them they are over-stepping the boundaries into my home when telling me I can or cannot have my teenagers invite kids over to watch movies in our house. I’m great with them teaching the kids to not make excuses to pair up and get physical for the dangers in can cause at an early age…but that I think their well-intentioned “rule” of no more youth movie nights is the incorrect approach and we will not support it. (I’m not even that angry about it..just gonna tell them what I think and why).

Do you agree with me that something needs to be said? Do you think I should write an email explaining why I feel that way, how I define “dating” in our home to our children, and how I feel the church should be teaching principles to these kids…not creating rules?

Or do you think it is appropriate for the church to teach such a rule that is not in the handbook, but is my bishop’s interpretation of what we want to call a rule in our ward based on things he’s heard and dealt with?

Right now, I’m thinking of drafting a letter. If I do, I’ll share it with you all.

Before I do…do you have any advice for me to consider so that I don’t create an issue unnecessarily? What would you do? What should I consider?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

or have movie nights at our home anymore

NO church leader has the right or authority to dictate what happens in someone else’s home. Period. End of discussion. That is straight from the top of the Church, and there is no wiggle room in it. Period. End of discussion. “Church activity movie nights” are one thing; “movie nights” involving anyone your daughter and you want to invite are another thing altogether.

Now, having said that, the key, as always, is how you approach and deal with it. As always, I can only advise calmness, charity and respect – but I personally wouldn’t budge one bit on this one.

[Anonymous]

I think that you need to talk to the Bishop. I would try to talk to him rather than writing a letter. He obviously doesn’t understand your point of view. I think that the best way for him to understand you is to talk to him. I really don’t think that you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here. Your bishop is about to do something that you think is inappropriate and it would be beneficial for him to hear your thoughts. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

First of all, I agree with the advice Ray & nightwalden gave – best in person, and yes you should state that you make the decisions for what happens in your home. But I wouldn’t spend much time on it because you’re so obviously right, it’s not worth debating!

Quote:

The YM President continues to call parents to let them know what their kids have been seen holding hands or kissing at school or other places…and wants them to know that other kids in the ward see their example and that it violates the church standards.

Not cool, and frankly not very wise. In the book Les Liaisons Dangereuses (Dangerous Liaisons) the scheming main characters know that if they want to ruin their young proteges’ morality, the best method is not to remove obstacles to them getting together, but to put obstacles in their way. As the father says in the play The Fantasticks: “to manipulate children, you merely say no.” I also feel there’s a specific danger in equating things that are not sin (kissing & holding hands) with sin (disobeying church standards???). Kids especially are prone to the feeling that “all is lost” and once they feel they’ve already gone “too far” then, why not go all the way? They have too little experience to have solid judgment at this age. They are still learning their way. Their guides shouldn’t be shrieking fearmongers.

[Anonymous]

This post is interesting to me because I am 28 and not dating anyone. It was funny to me when I was attending BYU that Elder Oaks did a YSA fireside on dating and trying to prod us singles into going on dates and not “hanging out”. So when I read that your daughter is “hanging out”, I am amused that this is exactly what Elder Oakes doesn’t want singles to be doing because there is no intent or commitment in hanging out. He said the popular trend at BYU was for a dorm of girls to bake cookies to intice a dorm of boys to come over to eat them. After that, the boys would leave having eaten the cookies, and possibly snuggled in front of a movie with one of the girls. He actually defined a “date” for us.

Dating is:

1. Planned ahead of time.

2. A formal invitiation.

3. An activity in public where the two can interact. Not in the apartment.

4. He walks her to her door when the date is over.

So based on what you have described, clearly, according to Elder Oaks, she isn’t dating. Otherwise the young man would be calling her up and asking her out for an activity and dropping her off at the doorstep when returning her home. So tell that to your ward gossip alliance.

Sad, isn’t it, when the church stifles young people from dating in their early teens and has to cattle prod them back into dating in their mid-late 20’s? This kind of reminds me of some female friends who have expressed sexual frustration at inhibiting all their sexual urges up until marriage and feeling dirty on their honeymoon and after because it had been so ingrained in them that sex was a bad thing. There needs to be some reform in the way the church deals with dating and chastity.

[Anonymous]

Wow, heber, quite a conundrum!!

The boundaries question is tricky. You absolutely should clarify boundaries with anyone you have a relationship that you feel is emotionally unhealthy. In this case, however, I’m not sure that you set boundaries for your daughter. This may be an interesting learning opportunity for her. Recognizing where her emotions are coming from, what they mean, and what to do with them is the greatest gift that you can help her discover for herself. If she feels that she needs her own boundaries in her personal relationships, then her ability to recognize that and have the emotional health to set those boundaries, would be so empowering for her emotionally.

As a parent, I dream of my children having the strength to take responsibility for their own emotional health, even when dealing with adults and especially, figures of “authority”. Obviously, all of this must be age-appropriate but, a teenage girl approaching 16 years-old, in my mind, will be able to begin this process.

I imagine in my mind, that a teen girl with the emotional ability to recognize and own her own emotional reactions to adults, parents or authority figures will be supremely “well-armed” in her budding interpersonal relationships, romantic or otherwise. If she can set boundaries with an adult, authority figure, she’ll be well-equipped to set boundaries with a teen boyfriend, for example. I know that’s a bit of an over-simplification, but kids who are empowered to take responsibility for their own emotional health, will better “find” themselves, have better self-esteem, feel more self-worth, make better informed decisions, etc.

For black/white thinkers, setting hard, fast rules and then using fear to coerce obedience is the path of least resistance. And, it can be successful in many instances. But, this is very short-sighted thinking, imho, and misses the opportunity for life-long learning and growth and experience. Like hawk said, the danger of the black/white paradigm is the all or nothing mentality. Some can grind through it, others will slip up and give up. None are better for it. As much as we want life to be a simple true/false test, it’s simply not. There’s nothing wrong with living within the black/white paradigm; it seems to work for some people. But, to pretend that it doesn’t come at a cost, is foolish.

“Wickedness never was happiness” is a common theme. Of course, some will use the other logical extension, “Obedience is the only way to happiness”. In the fear paradigm, this of course is true. Conquering fear by strict obedience is satisfying and comfortable. While this is an important part of peace and joy, it is only a part. There is a whole universe of happiness and joy that is obscured by the blinders of the black/white paradigm. Obedience out of fear is an illusion of strength; true strength comes from having the emotional health to dictate one’s own life based on self-worth and self-love.

[Anonymous]

I don’t have the answers to the specifics here, but there’s one thing I do know…the most important thing we can communicate to our children is that we love them unconditionally. No matter what.

This is a tough time for them to learn what to do with evolving feelings, sensitive egos, and the drama that is always there in the teenage years. There will always be conflicting advice given by leaders, and they will make mistakes. But the most helpful thing we can do is to be there to hug them and let them cry on our shoulders when they need to.

In my humble opinion…

[Author]

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