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richalger wrote:
We know that God has a relationship of perfect unity with his Son Jesus Christ, Jesus describes it in John 17. Jesus said that he wants all of us to have such a relationship. If we are to follow Jesus, we are to have a similar relationship with all who will.
You might know that, but I don’t. We humans have such a limited view, and it’s sometimes very surprising to me that we place such stock, emphasis and faith on the writings of a few others humans who we have no idea knew what they were talking about or could have been fantasizing. Was Mary a virgin or a young woman?
I have wondered if this world were destroyed by some sort of mega-disaster and at some point in the future some descendant of a survivor or alien discovered a small sample of writing what they would think? Is that writing Shakespeare? Poe? Stephen King? Malcolm X? Ludacris? A suicidal high school kid? Can this imaginary future human or alien really base anything on such a small writing sample?
Not only do I believe we have little idea what God wants, we also have no right to tell anybody else what we think God wants for them.
I think we have the right to tell others what we think God wants. I draw the line at trying to force them to accept our beliefs and base our laws strictly on our unique beliefs. Take same-sex marriage as an example. Our Church’s current stance essentially says that God’s eternal standard is one man and one woman, and, therefore, that arrangement should be the law of the land, basically because the modern Christian world accepts that marriage arrangement as God’s standard. However, theoughout the mid-late 1800s, we were on the EXACT opposite side of the same argument. One man and one woman was the general Christian standard, but we argued that God’s will included one man and more than one woman. We fought the federal government passionately over being able to marry outside the general Christian standard, and we cited our Constitutional freedom of religion in making that claim. We lost – and it is like we said, “If we can’t live our own exception, nobody else gets to live theirs.” We didn’t say we were wrong; we essentially said, “If we are the losers here, nobody else gets to win, either.” In regard to this issue, we decided to do unto others as others had done unto us – not as we wanted them to do unto us.
Now, there are quite a few mainstream Christian demoninations and churches that approve of same-sex marriage. It isn’t seen, collectively, as clearly as it was a few decades ago. There is no unanimous consensus anymore. However, we still are making the same legal argument we did when it was the obvious, single view. We claim religious freedom in the name of implementing God’s will, but we deny that exact same religious freedom to other Christians who disagree with us.
There is no consensus regarding God’s will in our current society, so trying to codify one view of God’s will gets dicey in a hurry.
Finally, our alignment with the religious right and evangelical Protestantism over the last few decades bothers me more than just about anything else. I see their core theology as essentially Lucifer’s plan, so I hate that politics is making very strange bedfellows.
I mostly agree, Curt. Quote:There is no consensus regarding God’s will in our current society, so trying to codify one view of God’s will gets dicey in a hurry.
That sums it up. Our church view (theology/doctrine) may not be right, but other views (theology/doctrine) may also be wrong. We might be all wrong together, or we might all be right about some of it but none of us are right on all of it.
That said, I think we can (as a church) offer our opinion and theology/doctrine as just that, but I think we have no place saying this is God’s will for everybody. And just to be clear, in my prior comment I was referring more to individuals than to the church as a whole. That is, I can’t say that because I believe something to be God’s will for me that it’s also God’s will for you or that because a prophet said it (ancient or modern) that it’s God’s will for everybody else. In other words, expressing an opinion is one thing, making a statement like “we know” is another because we don’t all know or even believe – and that’s perfectly OK. Some members (many, actually) often use the “we know” statement, usually referring to scriptures or statements of GAs, as a way of saying “this has to be right because it’s scripture” (even when it’s often only an interpretation of scripture). I confess that I have done so myself. Restating those kinds of statements as “I believe…” makes it much less “Thus saith the Lord I’m right and you’re wrong and this is what God commands you to do” and much more of a testimony. And please understand I’m letting the light side of the Force prevail here, I’d much prefer to use the dark side and bluntly say what I really think.
This is stake conference weekend for us and we have a great GA Seventy here. He has actually addressed some of this in a fairly unique way that we don’t often hear from someone at that level. I will likely share some of what he said, particularly about contention and avoiding contention (quoting from 3 Nephi) and offending and avoiding offending.
We appear to agree completely, DJ. richalger wrote:
We know that God has a relationship of perfect unity with his Son Jesus Christ, Jesus describes it in John 17. Jesus said that he wants all of us to have such a relationship. If we are to follow Jesus, we are to have a similar relationship with all who will.
Rich, it appears that you are coming at this from a more orthodox perspective than I. I respect that. Furthermore I think we are mostly on the same page here. I personally believe that our earthly relationships matter and that (if positive) they endure in some form after this life.
Quote:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast lovedme. I do not know who exactly it was that Jesus was talking about in “them also which shall believe on me through their word”. Are these Catholics? Evangelicals? SDA? JW? LDS? All Christianity? Just those that heard and accepted the message in the first hundred or so years before it became corrupted?
I can have my opinion. I propose that it would be very strange for just temple sealed Mormons (going back to the quote in the OP) to be this group that are “one” with Jesus and the Father. I also propose that if this “oneness” is at all related to the oneness that we are to seek for in our marriages then it cannot mean sameness or uniformity. We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can stand holding hands, even without seeing eye to eye.
Because I cannot imagine that Jesus was talking about just the adherents of one small denomination, I assume that he must have been talking about a group of people that have differences in the tenets of their faith. People that are not necessarily on the same page, but are reading from the same book and wish to travel in the same direction. How else might we be one with individuals or groups that are different than us?
Roy wrote:
I do not know who exactly it was that Jesus was talking about in “them also which shall believe on me through their word”. Are these Catholics? Evangelicals? SDA? JW? LDS? All Christianity? Just those that heard and accepted the message in the first hundred or so years before it became corrupted?
IMO it’s a good thing that Jesus wasn’t specific. It places us in a position to be more inclusive of others. If Jesus had been more specific we may limit ourselves to praying for just the specific group mentioned but since he was vague it really opens us up to more possibilities.
Quote:Roy Wrote:
I can have my opinion. I propose that it would be very strange for just temple sealed Mormons (going back to the quote in the OP) to be this group that are “one” with Jesus and the Father. I also propose that if this “oneness” is at all related to the oneness that we are to seek for in our marriages then it cannot mean sameness or uniformity. We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can stand holding hands, even without seeing eye to eye.
Because I cannot imagine that Jesus was talking about just the adherents of one small denomination, I assume that he must have been talking about a group of people that have differences in the tenets of their faith. People that are not necessarily on the same page, but are reading from the same book and wish to travel in the same direction. How else might we be one with individuals or groups that are different than us?
I see that those that are one with God are those that live according to his teachings or are willing to continue in the path such that they will live according to His teachings. I see this set of people that will obtain the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. I believe that a sub-set of those sealed in their lifetimes in the temple will obtain this. There are many, many that will accept this covenant after they have died. They are also part of the One that God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost enjoy.
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