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SilentDawning wrote:
Well, they finally set me apart — and in the blessing told me to strengthen and uplift them…so I feel that reflecting on the things that challenge our faith might run counter to that. However, I have an idea….
There is a scripture which says that the person who commits adultery will not be forgiven — I read it in the MIracle of Forgiveness. Spencer W Kimball then quoted a woman who felt doomed because she had committed adultery and read that scripture. He then comments that you can’t take any scripture in isolation — you have to take in the context of other scriptures that bear on the topic.
I think I could use the SWK approach to the George Albert Smith (GAS) objectionable quote. I could comment that his statement needs to be taken along with other scriptures and quotes from other prophets to have a fully rounded explanation of what causes people to lose faith.
Now, do any of you have any suggestions about other scriptures or quotes that might bear on this topic to tame GAS’s extreme comment, and again, provide these brethren with greater hope, and a kinder, gentler perception of God an the Church? They won’t get it if I stick only to what GAS said. (Pardon the GAS acronym but in this case I think it’s kind of fitting given the extremism in his comment
Well, and I’m being legitiment here. Since its so confusing to know when. Was he talking as a prophet or as a person? I honestly don’t know. Is it known? Can you present that as a question of how they feel if it is or isn’t if it isn’t known?
I suppose one could use the “speaking as a prophet vs speaking as a man” concept to get around this one — however, I think that might be dangerous territory for this group of men. Plus I find it a bit of a cop-out meant to justify the objectionable things that prophets say when reasons can be a more powerful and mind-changing approach. On this note, I printed both of Ray’s articles and I think they speak beautifully to my point that “if you lack faith it’s because you aren’t keeping the commandments” assertion is short-sighted and potentially damaging . It has also inspired the idea that JS’s revelation while in jail is a good example of the despair and lack of faith many people experience when in the throws of trial and tribulation. I intend to link that into it when I teach the lesson showing that the opposition life, as well as unfulfilled promises can also hurt faith.
My wife and I experienced the same things as the woman in the intfertility article, by the way, almost word for word.
I can also pull into the article some readings on Positive Psychology. Did you know that the odds of people having depression if their mothers died before they were eleven also goes up? And that they often don’t even realize they are depressed….to hang all that on their personal righteousness is incredibly destructive.
If anyone can think of any other reasons people doubt that are NOT tied to personal righteousness, preferably rooted in General Conference talks or the words of General Authorities or scripture I’m open.
I don’t want to write this in a way that could be misunderstood. But I see it like this. Within the bible/BOM are countless trials were according to those teachings would be a wavering of faith. Some large,some small by the prophets and even Christ when he asked god if it is possible to take and his will to take this cup from him. Christ already knew his mission and that there wasn’t another way. So given the that lesson portion would imply that Christ(as well as many prophets to a larger degree then this)was in some type of sin because his faith wavered. One of the reasons I find that take on faith disturbing. You can tie it to that or any number of propets who has doubt(shrinking of faith). Moses and the tapping of the rock for example. I do not see Moses in that example as(what have I done to sin) more of tired and a little(well a lot) worn out from journey and a little frustrated. You can use countless examples like that in the bible/BOM where I see in no way Christ or the prophets occasional wavering of faith as “what have I done to sin or not live the commandments” thing.
Another note(analogy) is I remember Propeht Gordon B. Hinckley not partaking of the sacrament during a general conference growing up. He cited that it was because his mind was on building temples and not Christ. This is a kind of wavering of faith because his mind was so preoccupied with temples it seems he doubted, just not worry god will provide(according to what we teach). This also causes concern for me as I love/loved GBH even of I did disagree with a few things he said, I respect/respected him. I wouldn’t take that doubt or wavering of faith that he shouldn’t worry about it so much, god will provide what is needed when it is needed as a”am I sinning”. Of course in reality things(building temples) is not that simple/just as the reality of that portion of the lesson plan isn’t that simple. I posted something last night, but it is not here. Not sure why it didn’t go through. In Mark 9:23-24 : ” Jesus saith unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe;help thou mine unbelief.” I have always seen that scripture as an example the Lord recognizes we struggle to believe (have faith). The main point I think was to teach the disciples that certain illnesses require fasting and prayer, but still the words of the father are there for a lesson on something. This father was not in sin because even as he believed, he needed help with believing too. This has always been a merciful scripture to me. Don’t know if that’s what you’re looking for or not, SD, to help with the lesson, but I certainly have applied it to many situations in my own life that did not involve depression blocking my faith.
These are great examples. I will let them settle on my mind as any of them make good antidotes to the GAS statement at the start of this thread. Thanks everyone. If you have more feel free to share. I have taught EQ in the past. I see three options for you: A) teach what the book says to teach, even though you disagree.
Confront the teaching you disagree with during your lessonC) Skip over it altogether and pretend it isn’t there. Nobody ever hits ALL the material anyway due to time.
When I taught I normally went with A and C. C if it was a small portion of the lesson I didn’t like, A if the whole lesson topic was something I didn’t like. After all, you aren’t there to teach your beliefs, you are there to teach church doctrine.
Quote:If there are any of us who lack faith in this work it is because we have not kept the commandments of God. If there are any who do not know that this is the work of our father, it is because they have-not done their duty. I know as I know that I live that this is the Lord’s work, and that knowledge comes as a result of keeping His commandments.
We know that faith is a gift of God. it is the fruitage of righteous living. It does not come to use by our command, but is the result of doing the will of our Heavenly Father. If we lack faith let us examine ourselves to see if we have been keeping his commandments and repent without delay if we have not…”
(p. 188)
This statement was taught today, the teacher gave a short testimony about how his faith is stronger when he is living righteously and then closed the lesson.
Afterwards I came up to him after everyone else had left and asked him about it. He said that maybe faith in this context meant the (principle of action) enabling power to obey the commandments. I said that that made sense but that would mean that those that obey the commandments are blessed with the ability to keep the commandments and that those that don’t keep the commandments are not blessed with the ability to keep the commandments. That makes sense but is not how we typically use the word faith.
I said that I would hate for people who are striving to live the gospel but are discouraged by difficult outcomes imagine that it is their own fault, that if they had more faith they could alter the outcome or at least maintain faith in the midst of disappointment. Now to say that this lack of faith also signifies unrighteousness is troubling. He responded that there was more in the lesson than what we had time to read, perhaps there was additional context that we didn’t get. I confirmed the chapter title and assured the teacher that I would look deeper into it. I thanked him for his lesson and he thanked me for my participation.
I mentioned explicitly in our HPG lesson that the only concern I have when we talk about blessings of faithfulness is that those who are struggling without obvious blessings can feel like those struggles would go away if they just had more faith. I said that I know none of us believe that – especially after a wonderful talk in Sacrament Meeting today about dealing with struggles given by a very young mother who has been receiving treatment for breast cancer over the past few months – but that I just feel for those who hear about blessings of faith from others but aren’t feeling it themselves. Btw, the speaker I mentioned started by saying she was looking for a good scripture or quote from a Church leader to introduce her talk but found the following from Dolly Parton, instead:
Quote:If you want to enjoy the rainbow, you have to accept the rain.
I thought of this discussion while she was talking. It really was a wonderful talk.
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