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nibbler wrote:
Elder Pingree said something interesting, something that I’ve thought about from time to time. To paraphrase, because time has passed this won’t be remotely accurate, Jesus deflected praise and pointed to his father in heaven.Yet often we express our worship and reverence towards Jesus proper. Wouldn’t Jesus reorient us to our father in heaven… or would he accept the praise. Is the focus of the gospel Jesus or “the father?”
Just thoughts.
Interestingly I was recently told by a member of another church that one of our problems is that we don’t talk about Heavenly Father (God was his term) enough. I agree – I think we’ve made some improvement in being more Christ centered in sacrament meetings (at least in my area) but we really don’t talk about Heavenly Father/God all that much – but Jesus talked about Him all the time.
nibbler, I have said for a long time that we focus too little on Heavenly Father and Heacenly Mother – but, in fairness, we talk about them FAR more than most other Christian denominations who effectively have killed the Father in their total obsession with the Son. Odd, but I noticed that when I saw President Uctdorf without my reader glasses he looked like he had a mustache, yet when I put on my reading glasses, I could see that he did not have a mustache. Other observations to come. You know what I realized? DHO is going to be prophet someday, and while I know he talks about other things besides SSM, for me and a lot of people that’s what we’ll remember him for. Wouldn’t you rather be remembered for how uplifting your talks always are? I mean even if you oppose SSM, do you actually feel the Spirit during talks like these, or just a self-satisfied sense of confirmation bias? (Also, it’s going to be really embarrassing when the church eventually changes its stance, and they have to release an anonymous essay distancing itself/disavowing all of DHO’s many, many talks on the subject. But that won’t happen while he’s alive.)
Elder Holland is at his best when he is focusing on topics like this. This is what Mormonism is supposed to be. I’m liking JRH’s subject matter. As someone that suffered from scrupulosity when I was a more orthodox believer. Much appreciated for the people that are in shoes I once walked in. I agree with Ray and Nibbler. This is a gospel message of hope. Elder Holland’s talk is needed. Too many in the church feel down trodden by the dichotomy between what they feel they are and what they feel the church expects them to be. On the other hand, it’s the church’s teachings about sin and inadequacy that create the feelings of shame and guilt and worthlessness. I think these feelings are one of the most harmful fruits of religion in general, and mormonism in particular.
nibbler wrote:
I’m liking JRH’s subject matter. As someone that suffered from scrupulosity when I was a more orthodox believer. Much appreciated for the people that are in shoes I once walked in.
Agreed. I was much harder on myself when I was orthodox. However, I feel much better about myself after dropping orthodox norms than I ever did when trying to constantly repent and improve. Intentional or not, the church creates a feeling in the orthodox that they are not enough and must always do better. I like trying to improve but also I love being able to accept myself now.
I liked Sister Oscarson’s talk. I think she offered the millennial a way to be relevant, to make a difference. I think that’s one of the things they are searching for. DoubtingTom wrote:
Elder Holland’s talk is needed. Too many in the church feel down trodden by the dichotomy between what they feel they are and what they feel the church expects them to be.On the other hand, it’s the church’s teachings about sin and inadequacy that create the feelings of shame and guilt and worthlessness. I think these feelings are one of the most harmful fruits of religion in general, and mormonism in particular.
I think that is part of it. I think the other source of the problem is the overemphasis on obedience and keeping the commandments and the underemphasis on grace. Yes, it’s true (I believe) that we don’t get a free pass into heaven, but it isn’t really our works or obedience that gets us there either.When he was talking about the parable of the debtors, I saw a different perspective of the other debtor than I had seen before, especially in his reminder to us that even the best of us are greatly indebted to God. With my recent embrace of the idea that church leadership is flawed- sometimes mistaken, sometimes abusive- I felt a little nudge to forgive those who have abused their positions of authority or who have taught incorrect ideas. They are only human, after all.
We didn’t discuss the talks in the first session of conference but Sister Joy D. Jones talked about the difference between being worthless and less worthy. I liked that she was going there but felt something was missing. IMO Holland’s talk was what was missing. Taking it that extra step. Not to disparage Sister Jones’ talk. I’m glad that the church leaders are becoming more aware of an eroding sense of self worth among many members of the church.
Take my comment with a massive grain of salt. I didn’t listen to any of this mornings, but on the DHO topic- I am reminded that Bruce R. McConkie was all over “Blacks will never get the Priesthood.” He wrote about it in books and said it addresses. Then surprise – The ban was revoked. He was wrong and later said as much. So yeah this is Oaks and Nelsons thing but clearly they are a divided group on the how and what of LGBTQ issues. 6 months ago JRH publicly states we need SGA members in our “choir”. Elder Christofferson
finallybroached in GC that he has a gay brother. And Tom Christofferson gets a book and between GC time to promote it. There is no status quo. For me I will promote the messages that run more towards my liking.
Sustaining time. I feel it’s easier to sustain when understanding that these men are generally good, but sometimes wrong or hurtful. Sustaining to me doesn’t mean agreeing with and following everything they say. Instead, it means that we support them in their efforts to lead, even though they sometimes do wrong in our eyes. Sometimes this means correcting mistakes, opening dialogue, or disobeying council that you believe does not come from God.
I know these men love God and they are trying to lead us to the best of their abilities. They are products of their upbringing and sometimes offer their own opinions and incorrectly label those opinions as revelation.
Oh Brother Stevenson… The Sun is 65,000,000 million times bigger than our moon, not 400 times. :think:
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