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One thing I noticed in the Sunday morning session, was all the talks pointing to the prophet. When the prophet spoke he pointed to Jesus. I thought that was good. I agree, Rich. It would be great if everyone else would follow the prophet in that way. 
:thumbup: richalger wrote:One thing I noticed in the Sunday morning session, was all the talks pointing to the prophet. When the prophet spoke he pointed to Jesus. I thought that was good.
I agree that it was good that it turned out that way.
How did I end up being
that guy? Might as well own it: People that need structure likely have no problem whatsoever with calls to follow the prophet. It establishes order. To extend this, perhaps it’s nice to have someone that is among us in a more literal sense, a Jesus surrogate.
People that do have problems with calls to follow the prophet likely see it as introducing imperfections into the system, or at least more imperfection than what already exists. Worst case they probably see it as opening the system up for abuse. While I don’t see abuse as a potential problem in the modern LDS church I do understand how pointing to a person that then points to deity can be an issue. Even Jesus, being perfect, didn’t point toward himself, he pointed towards his father. Why then do we point to an imperfect person and hope that they steer us right? People that take issue probably would have preferred the talks point people directly toward Jesus, cut out the middle man.
Perhaps there’s a time and a place for a prophet, perhaps there’s a point where people can walk with confidence in a more direct relationship with deity.
richalger wrote:One thing I noticed in the Sunday morning session, was all the talks pointing to the prophet. When the prophet spoke he pointed to Jesus. I thought that was good.
I couldn’t agree more
:thumbup: I have pointed this out myself, including at the above mentioned meeting (but very gently).nibbler wrote:richalger wrote:One thing I noticed in the Sunday morning session, was all the talks pointing to the prophet. When the prophet spoke he pointed to Jesus. I thought that was good.
I agree that it was good that it turned out that way.
How did I end up being
that guy? Might as well own it: People that need structure likely have no problem whatsoever with calls to follow the prophet. It establishes order. To extend this, perhaps it’s nice to have someone that is among us in a more literal sense, a Jesus surrogate.
People that do have problems with calls to follow the prophet likely see it as introducing imperfections into the system, or at least more imperfection than what already exists. Worst case they probably see it as opening the system up for abuse. While I don’t see abuse as a potential problem in the modern LDS church I do understand how pointing to a person that then points to deity can be an issue. Even Jesus, being perfect, didn’t point toward himself, he pointed towards his father. Why then do we point to an imperfect person and hope that they steer us right? People that take issue probably would have preferred the talks point people directly toward Jesus, cut out the middle man.
Perhaps there’s a time and a place for a prophet, perhaps there’s a point where people can walk with confidence in a more direct relationship with deity.
Frankly I have no trouble with following Pres. Monson. He has asked little of us and mostly testifies of the Savior and talks about loving our neighbors. That’s exactly what I think an apostle or prophet should do. I model my talks after his (focused on the Savior, personal stories, poems/hymn lyrics). As much as I loved and respected Pres. Hinckley, I do have some issues with following him (more than one set of earrings, for example).Rich, I really do appreciate you for pointing that out. I actually missed President Monson’s talk Sunday morning. I just checked it out and it’s good. Unfortunately, I am still not content. While it is good to heed a prophet who is pointing to Christ, it seems to me that the church is becoming dangerously close to portraying the prophet as an intermediary between us and God. It’s almost as if we are to pray through him. I get the vibe that members are relying less on the Holy Ghost and more on a man. I am concerned that these scriptures are being forgotten:
Quote:O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm. (2 Nephi 4:34)
And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way…Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do…For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ… (2 Nephi 32)
The Gospel of Christ is simple: have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive and be sanctified by the Holy Ghost. However, I hear more about following the prophet than I do about following the Spirit. I am actually not worried that President Monson might lead us astray – I don’t think he will – but the principle of the thing is disconcerting. Maybe I just need to chill.Shawn wrote:it seems to me that the church is becoming dangerously close to portraying the prophet as an intermediary between us and God. It’s almost as if we are to pray through him.
By having sacrament every week, it can direct our minds to our covenants made to Heavenly Father through the name of Jesus. “that they may always have his Spirit to be with them” (D&C 20:77This part of Elder Nelson’s talk is comforting to me.
Quote:The calling of 15 men to the holy apostleship provides great protection for us as members of the Church. Why? Because decisions of these leaders must be unanimous. (
D&C 107:27Sustaining the ProphetsThanks for your reply, Rich. I confess that my concern could be all in my head. Maybe I am seeing the “follow the prophet” mantra as bigger than it really is. Maybe I need to shift my focus. I actually
started a threadShawn wrote:Thanks for your reply, Rich. I confess that my concern could be all in my head. Maybe I am seeing the “follow the prophet” mantra as bigger than it really is. Maybe I need to shift my focus.
I actually
started a threadI see your point, Shawn. There are definitely people in the church – a lot of people – who see the prophet as infallible, more so than most Catholics actually see the pope. Without question there is some prophet worship. Even in my TBM days I was never a fan of this or the “follow the prophet” mantra. You are absolutely right that the gospel is very simple, as you outlined, and it does seem that prophets can muddle that simplicity. I full support more focus on the Savior and less on the prophet, and while I can’t say that I have searched every one of Pres. Monson’s talks, I have looked at many of them and no where do I see him as an advocate of follow the prophet – he is on record many times pointing toward the Savior, however.
On this idea – I almost agree with Shawn’s point. Before I go farther, I also acknowledge the Pres. Monson addresses have been very Christ focused or Christian focused. I think that is why he has always been a personal favorite of mine. Where I think the rub comes in – is who is the Prophet. Yes President Monson has been Christ directing, but in my ward and stake we rarely re-hash or discuss his talks. I have never heard his idea’s repeated as answers in class, but I have heard plenty from Elder Bednar said…, or in conference some 70 said….. So how far does the “Follow the Prophet” extend to? I know I am nit-picking here, but as a culture we don’t always follow that either – but we will use it to push our agenda if we need.
Bednar’s “Tender Mercy” talk is over a decade old, and I like it very much, but it gets more access than President Monson’s talk where he used the example of Methodist eye doctor who asked his family every night, “Who did you serve today.”
I don’t know which talks will get the floor in the next few months or years, but I know there are a few doosies from this conference I don’t want to sit through again. The might ship of Zion is one of them. Was that from a prophet and how did it connect me to Christ?
I love that the Sacrament gets way more emphasis than almost anything else. It happens every week. It is often mentioned as the main purpose of Sunday worship. The prayers are set. And by so doing, they are consistent in their messages. I love the talk from Elder Oaks on it from a few years ago. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/sacrament-meeting-and-the-sacrament?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/sacrament-meeting-and-the-sacrament?lang=eng I agree that President Monson is great – he speaks of the Savior and of charity. I just wish he would say something to stifle the excessive admiration and praise directed to him. He does not seem to be negatively affected by it, but I am! Besides the two talks about prophets, some prayers irked me. One person said in a prayer, “we are
thrilledto be in the presence of thy prophet.” Similar things were said by others. Adulation is a disease!I reckon I just need to focus on what I focus on.
Here we are several days after the conference and all I really remember are a few phrases here and there and the emotions I felt. I went back skimming the main October 2014 General Conference hub and saw a talk with a title that jumped out at me. I skimmed it and ran across something that is relevant to the discussion:
Free Forever, to Act for Themselves-Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Quote:But God intends that His children should act according to the moral agency He has given them, “that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” It is His plan and His will that we have the principal decision-making role in our own life’s drama. God will not live our lives for us nor control us as if we were His puppets, as Lucifer once proposed to do. Nor will His prophets accept the role of “puppet master” in God’s place. Brigham Young stated: “I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.”
In fact you can read anything you want into the story he shared at the beginning of the talk about King Henry disguising himself and going out among the rank and file to get unfiltered opinions.
That was a great quote from Elder Christofferson. I didn’t remember the the puppet master part. nibbler wrote:Here we are several days after the conference and all I really remember are a few phrases here and there and the emotions I felt. I went back skimming the main October 2014 General Conference hub and saw a talk with a title that jumped out at me.
I skimmed it and ran across something that is relevant to the discussion:
Free Forever, to Act for Themselves-Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Quote:But God intends that His children should act according to the moral agency He has given them, “that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” It is His plan and His will that we have the principal decision-making role in our own life’s drama. God will not live our lives for us nor control us as if we were His puppets, as Lucifer once proposed to do. Nor will His prophets accept the role of “puppet master” in God’s place. Brigham Young stated: “I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.”
In fact you can read anything you want into the story he shared at the beginning of the talk about King Henry disguising himself and going out among the rank and file to get unfiltered opinions.
I like the quote, too, and have taken the liberty of posting it to Useful Quote of the Day.
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