October 2016 General Conference

[Anonymous]

Quote:

L H wrote – And I do tend to vent here more than in real life.

That is exactly what we are here for. We’ve all done it and hopefully in doing so we have saved some face to face relationships we needed to keep.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

… “my way is the only way and you are WRONG and if you don’t agree, then I would rather you not be here.” …

Emphasis added. I raised my voice on social media this weekend against exactly what you said here. Far, far, far too much policing of the saints by the saints. Unfortunately the saint policing tends to spike around general conference time. I think hearing from church authorities gives the saints that are very authoritarian a little adrenaline and some decide to use that extra energy to separate the wheat from the tares a millennia or two too early.

So yea, I heard exactly that this weekend; If that’s the way you feel, why are you even here? Why don’t you leave? Better yet, LEAVE! I get that this sort of sentiment is going to come from an occasional individual, there’s always going to be that one guy and unfortunately that one guy is usually shouting so the volume of their voice is going to be disproportionate to the body of saints their voice represents, but when I hear it from local leaders I have to speak up.

I mean there was a perfect talk to address this very issue during conference. Maybe one person you’re busy trying to shoo out the door is tomorrow’s Alma or Amulek.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

Old Timer wrote:

I get it, LH – but, just to consider, how is wanting to silence the talks with which we disagree different than those who want to silence the talks with which we agree?

I did realize that fact when I was writing this (and meant to comment on that). But I don’t think I want to silence others, just not have them say, “my way is the only way and you are WRONG and if you don’t agree, then I would rather you not be here.” We have GREAT discussions here and not everyone agrees, but by and large we are respectful. We have athiests here that give and receive more respect for differing opinions than on a topic such as the limits of God’s love.

Old Timer wrote:

I really do get the emotion – but I think it is important to recognize the “natural (wo)man” reaction and strive to overcome it, even if so many don’t appear to even be trying and certainly aren’t reciprocating. In this case, the Golden Rule can be powerful.

I am sure you do – and many do. And I do tend to vent here more than in real life. I hope I don’t burn bridges by doing so sometimes. I don’t like to argue with others that don’t want to explore other’s ideas a bit.

Good thoughts, LH. And very valid. It is a tough thing. I talk to many people who don’t feel comfortable in our ward, and don’t want to debate these things…would rather just not go until someone helps them feel like they are welcome.

I guess…for me…that is what I think about often. How can I stay so I can make others feel comfortable? Because more and more, there are people like nibbler is saying who say those things.

But when I express different views…I often have people tell me in the hallways they appreciate it. Then it makes me sad it is in the hallways and in private…still not so welcoming to openly express it in class as much…although I hear it more and more and hope to make things more and more comfortable for such things…and sometimes really don’t know how much it will change…until I step back and look at how it is now vs 5 yrs ago…or 10 yrs ago. IDK.

I just think this is what church is for…to practice working how to handle the discourse, and the actions on treating others, and how to love even that zealot who even bluntly says to leave…and while I’m at it, why don’t I live in another country. Since that is not going to happen this year, here I am. I’m part of the ward too. I stay, I practice ways to have the exchange with others, and I try hard to remind myself I may often be very wrong in my views and want to learn from others, cafeteria style…taking from their comments I agree with or can learn from and reject the rest.

And sometimes I just need a break and take a sunday off.

My point…conference gives everyone ammunition for what they want. I can find gems I’m looking for also that help me continue to feel there is a place even for me. The exchanges and use of the ideas from conference is a reflection of our souls, and I want to practice the golden rule Curt spoke of. I can’t practice that if I go home and wait for the ward to change so I can come be me without conflicts of ideas.

I’m not dismissing your thoughts in any way or down playing them. I hear ya, I agree with those feelings. This forum is great…but I have to practice in person with my neighbors. I think the Lord allows for problems in the church so we can do that very thing.

I wish you were in my ward.

[Anonymous]

I watched this Conference all the way through. This was a first time in a long time.

I find myself ambivalent to the whole thing. It is difficult to relate sometimes.

Maybe it’s the seasonal change that affects my mood.

I relate better to people who don’t seem perfect. People who overcome. People who apply the

principles of the gospel on a basic level & come out the other side better than they started.

Authorities in the Church seldom tell you about their shortcomings, doubts, questions, weaknesses, etc.

As a result, I can feel “less than”. (my two cents)

[Anonymous]

Minyan Man wrote:

As a result, I can feel “less than”.

There is some greatness in that, if those feelings move towards good things because of it.

I wish you were in my ward.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

There is some greatness in that, if those feelings move towards good things because of it.

That’s a big if for some people.

If someone feels like a 7 and feels like the expectation is that they become a 7.25 (and they have a certain personality type) they might feel motivated to become a 7.25. If someone feels like a 2 and feels like the expectation is that they become that same 7.25 the goal may feel impossibly out of reach and the expectation may end up suppressing growth.

There were a few talks during conference that mentioned not comparing ourselves to others. That’s a good idea, I like it, but it’s easier said than done. Comparing ourselves to others seems to be a part of the human condition. I do think reducing how much we compare ourselves to others is a noble pursuit but if comparing ourselves to others is such a powerful force in our lives is there a way to make it work for us instead of against us?

There’s always going to be someone better than us, no matter where we are, but if we’re a 2 maybe it would be better to shift our gaze to the 2.01s instead of the 7.25s, make the gap less daunting and more attainable. Of course everything in conference feels like comparing ourselves to an 11. That’s one of the reasons I liked the firecracker in the church building talk. I saw a few social media posts from people that were ecstatic that story was shared because they have children that do things and if so-and-so can explode a firework at church the thought becomes, maybe there’s hope for my wild child (and maybe they’ll be an apostle one day).

I think we like stories where the characters are relatable. How do we relate to the characters? By comparing ourselves to them. If we only present whitewashed caricatures it will be much harder to relate and the story isn’t as useful to inspire growth.

Different people are reached differently. It’s kind of hard to reach the 2s during conference but it’s not like there aren’t 12 hours of conference. Do we use the 12 hours to give talks that reach the same people over and over and over again or do we use the 12 hours to reach different types of saints? It’s not an easy thing. The people giving the talks probably don’t want to appear weak in front of their peers. They probably don’t want to present anything less than an ideal either. Who wants to set the bar at attaining a 2.01? Well, the people that are currently at a 2.00.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think we like stories where the characters are relatable. How do we relate to the characters? By comparing ourselves to them. If we only present whitewashed caricatures it will be much harder to relate and the story isn’t as useful to inspire growth.

It would be nice if they considered that big chunk of people whose story is more like, “I remember this time…firecracker…hid from my dad and bishop because I knew they’d have my hide…sorry now that I disrupted what I know to be such a beautiful part of the Sabbath.”

Quote:

Do we use the 12 hours to give talks that reach the same people over and over and over again or do we use the 12 hours to reach different types of saints? It’s not an easy thing.

I liked Joni’s comment that it would be nice to hear a talk about faith crisis from the actual person experiencing one. But I understand that this truly isn’t an easy thing. The leaked videos remind me that leaders get almost no information straight from members.

Elder Renlund’s story is sweet and true. It should be told! But there are just so many other stories that also need telling.

[Anonymous]

I don’t really expect to see a talk during general conference given by someone who has experienced a faith crisis. For starters, talks are only given by general and area authorities. It might be a while before leaders feel comfortable promoting people that have experienced a faith crisis and are open about it. Could you imagine the talk, “I don’t necessarily believe that the church is literally the One True Church but I’ve come to love it anyway because…”

The closest we’ll probably get in the foreseeable future are probably going to be talks similar to the stories Uchtdorf shared, “I know a guy…” Maybe we’ll get a story that starts off with an “I know a guy…” but the speaker is surreptitiously talking about themselves.

I also don’t think a story about someone that has had a faith crisis and has happily moved on with their lives is the kind of story that leaders want to have shared during general conference. It would seem that coming back into the fold is always going to be presented as the ideal during general conference because that’s what the leaders genuinely believe.

It’s a tough problem. I do wonder how the leaders could present their case or what they could say to create a more inviting Mormonism. The faith crisis/discover troubling information talks are probably here to stay. If they can’t be given by people that have walked a mile in the shoes is there a way they can be given where family members don’t create expectations of one another, where one path is not presented as superior than another, in short can the talks be given in a way that unites mixed faith families instead of dividing them?

Switching gears, I guess I’m an outlier. I liked a few things Uchtdorf said in his many talks during conference but it was more miss than hit for me. Shrugs.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

It’s a tough problem. I do wonder how the leaders could present their case or what they could say to create a more inviting Mormonism. The faith crisis/discover troubling information talks are probably here to stay. If they can’t be given by people that have walked a mile in the shoes is there a way they can be given where family members don’t create expectations of one another, where one path is not presented as superior than another, in short can the talks be given in a way that unites mixed faith families instead of dividing them?

My struggle is – I think they can. I think scripture gives them plenty of mileage on the subject. It doesn’t even take much imagination. The challenge is I don’t think it will happen. Not because anyone intends to be mean, but because if you haven’t experienced anything like it, you won’t see the little gems that could be used.

3rd Nephi is a great place to start. Two or three times in that section Jesus demonstrates, admonishes, and commands that all should be included. “And yes shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together.” “And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away.” Even the unworthy (whomever they are) “Neverthe less, ye shall not cast him out from among you.” – All of that appears in 6 verses back to back.

As I wrestle I try desperately to remember how life worked for their generation. I think it makes a huge difference. My parents are their age, and even with my mom as a late teen convert, the world and what was and how it was done was very different. People at the bottom didn’t upset the apple cart at the top. Age trumped much. This is a group that lived during a Great Depression and a War that none of us can understand. We have none of the implicit life trajectories they had. For them you make a decision and stick to it. Come hell or high water. Family First (not self).

Enduring really meant something. It meant long dark scary black out and brown out nights. It meant fear of things we no longer fathom. It also meant that nothing came easy. You didn’t negotiate. Rules/guidelines/ etc. were never challenged.

Understanding this doesn’t fix the present problem. It doesn’t solve my struggle, but whether I stay or go, I want to be a person who chooses to consider the other person’s point of view.

It’s taken them a decade to even say the phrase “Faith Crisis.” I assume they think they have come to a personal understanding. Now we get to decide what to do with it.

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of this would happen naturally if we just had some younger people in there. There’s too big an age gap between the leaders and the leavers.

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Understanding this doesn’t fix the present problem. It doesn’t solve my struggle, but whether I stay or go, I want to be a person who chooses to consider the other person’s point of view.

It’s taken them a decade to even say the phrase “Faith Crisis.” I assume they think they have come to a personal understanding. Now we get to decide what to do with it.

I really like these thoughts.

I don’t think “they” will fix all problems, there will always be problems. It really is up to us what we do with it.

To me, it seems to be why conference is always a mixed bag. Hoping for some big statements of evidence of change or what I want to hear can be disappointing…yet some nuggets of things that continue to give me hope.

Problems remain. But there is hope. And that is not a total loss.

[Anonymous]

Ann I have given this some thought,

Quote:

I think a lot of this would happen naturally if we just had some younger people in there.

and I am not sure if age has anything to do with it.

Elder Bednar is much closer to my age, and was significantly younger than the team when he and Uchtdorf were sustained. Yet Bednar to me is entrenched in his SOP as a GA. His youth brought nothing new to the team. Uchtdorf on the other hand brings a streak of hope. Not just in his talks but in his style, his religious non-speaking pursuits, and demeanor. Adding to this comparison, I look around my ward and visit YSA wards. Plenty of active LDS YSA men are very party line.

I think time will bring changes but I am not sure where to look for those changes.

[Author]

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