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A few years ago I remember loving this talk (given while Elder Holland was BYU president, not long before he was called to be a General Authority) http://www.familylifeeducation.org/gilliland/procgroup/Souls.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5PBqxwlfHI I like the positive way he frames sex as a power to be next to godliness.
Quote:I submit to you that you will never be more like God at any other time in this life than when you are expressing that particular power. Of all the titles he has chosen for himself, Father is the one he declares, and Creation is his watchword–especially human creation, creation in his image. His glory isn’t a mountain, as stunning as mountains are. It isn’t in sea or sky or snow or sunrise, as beautiful as they all are. It isn’t in art or technology, be that a concerto or computer. No, his glory–and his grief–is in his children. You and I, we are his prized possessions, and we are the earthly evidence, however inadequate, of what he truly is. Human life–that is the greatest of God’s powers, the most mysterious and magnificent chemistry of it all–and you and I have been given it, but under the most serious and sacred of restrictions. You and I who can make neither mountain nor moonlight, not one raindrop nor a single rose–yet we have this greater gift in an absolutely unlimited way. And the only control placed on us is self-control–self-control born of respect for the divine sacramental power it is.
I also like that he’s teaching people sex is: “…right and rewarding and stunningly beautiful when it is within marriage and approved of God (not just “good” but “very good,” he declared to Adam and Eve)”
But I think he maybe over-labours the point when he asks and answers the question why it’s:
Quote:“…blasphemously wrong–like unto murder–when it is outside such a covenant? It is my understanding that we park and pet and sleep over and sleep with at the peril of our very lives. Our penalty may not come on the precise day of our transgression, but it comes surely and certainly enough, and were it not for a merciful God and the treasured privilege of personal repentance, far too many would even now be feeling that hellish pain, which (like the passion we have been discussing) is also always described in the metaphor of fire. Someday, somewhere, sometime the morally unclean will, until they repent, pray like the rich man, wishing Lazarus to “dip . . . his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame” (Luke 16:24).”
Thoughts?
I liked a lot about the talk (a lot), but I just can’t get into thinking about sex in terms of a “sacrament”. We use that term very differently than many Christians, so it just doesn’t work for me. I have no problem with an attempt to limit sex to marriage for those who accept such limitations as important, but I also think, often, when it’s done right there is little of the “sacred” in it. Maybe that says a lot about me, but I think we miss a lot when we restrict it in ways that the word “sacrament” (as used in Mormonism) tends to do.
Old-Timer wrote:I liked a lot about the talk (a lot), but I just can’t get into thinking about sex in terms of a “sacrament”. We use that term very differently than many Christians, so it just doesn’t work for me.
I have no problem with an attempt to limit sex to marriage for those who accept such limitations as important, but I also think, often, when it’s done right there is little of the “sacred” in it. Maybe that says a lot about me, but I think we miss a lot when we restrict it in ways that the word “sacrament” (as used in Mormonism) tends to do.
I agree Ray. I think many latter-day saints have the puritan view of sex being “dirty” and something associated with some guilt. I also liked the talk, but I recognize it is very difficult to turn the act of sex into a sacrament, despite the implicated creative power.
I don’t really like when people talk about sex in those grandiose terms. I think it is just a part of life, and while the creation of a human body may be sacred, more often the act doesn’t lead to conceptions so overall I don’t think the act itself is sacred. I also don’t like the talk that any sexual sins are next to murder. I think rape is, but consensual, loving sex between two adults doesn’t seem like murder to me. Amen, journeygirl. One of the most viewed posts on my personal blog is the following:
“
Sexual Sins Are NOT Next to Murder” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2011/06/sexual-sins-are-not-next-to-murder.html A bit of some sensationalism for effect, I’d say…as he says:
Quote:Most people, it seems to me, readily sense the sanctity of life and as a rule do not run up to friends, put a loaded revolver to their heads, and cavalierly pull the trigger. Furthermore, when there is a click of the hammer rather than an explosion of lead, and a possible tragedy seems to have been averted, no one in such a circumstance would be so stupid as to sigh, “Oh, good. I didn’t go all the way.”
This sounds much like a plug for a “Not Even Once” club on campus, and holding up high for admiration those who take things to the extreme moral position.
I think it is good to inspire younger people to take these things very serious, and I really like the LDS teachings of eternal bonding in marriage to be as one and to raise a family in righteousness. I like the faith that can allow a couple to hope for, cling to, commit towards, and take serious their relationship.
But like most other teachings in the church, they should not be taken so literally or fantastically, but as spiritual guidance and good words of wisdom. Likely, in real life, moderation in all things is prudent and worthy of personal growth. For all the “Babies having babies” statistics he quotes, I would think there are also plenty of studies that suggest that pre-marital sex is not so damaging, and some studies that suggest it is healthy, if responsibly managed in a person’s life.
I have 2 daughters in college now. I want them to be morally clean and good mormon girls. I don’t want their natural feelings and their bodies to become a source of guilt or fear or self-image problems. I agree with journeygirl…it is a natural part of life, and we all must learn to control our experiences in life, and look to make the experiences as positive and healthy as possible, including keeping some things sacred within marriage to help provide a place for good things to grow. But threats of eternal damnation or God inflicting fire and brimstone to those unrepentant souls who slipped up are not ideas that mean much to me.
I do not like the idea of my daughter having sex. I think of the ways that she could be hurt emotionally or physically. I am more comfortable with the idea of her getting married and having sex with her husband. My feelings are not exactly the same for my son. There exists somewhat of a double standard in my mind. Lately I have started to think about how similar this is to the idea of me being the gaurdian of her and her body and then passing the responsibility to her husband. I do not like that idea.
I am working on being comfortable with my daughter owning her life and her body. It is a work in progress.
Roy +1 That is why I’ve never liked the practice of a father giving away his daughter. I see my daughters as being their own independent individuals, not property I own and can give away.
Also, I LOATHE the idea that boys will be boys, but girls are sluts if they have sex. That view places all the responsibility for “proper sex” on the girls – and that is abominable and robs males of the accountability associated with agency.
/end of soapbox rant
Heber13 wrote:I have 2 daughters in college now. I want them to be morally clean and good mormon girls. I don’t want their natural feelings and their bodies to become a source of guilt or fear or self-image problems. I agree with journeygirl…it is a natural part of life, and we all must learn to control our experiences in life, and look to make the experiences as positive and healthy as possible, including keeping some things sacred within marriage to help provide a place for good things to grow. But threats of eternal damnation or God inflicting fire and brimstone to those unrepentant souls who slipped up are not ideas that mean much to me.
How exactly can this be said to kids without giving them mixed signals? I want to say something like this, but I don’t know how, and I’m a little afraid to.
Ann wrote:Heber13 wrote:I have 2 daughters in college now. I want them to be morally clean and good mormon girls. I don’t want their natural feelings and their bodies to become a source of guilt or fear or self-image problems. I agree with journeygirl…it is a natural part of life, and we all must learn to control our experiences in life, and look to make the experiences as positive and healthy as possible, including keeping some things sacred within marriage to help provide a place for good things to grow. But threats of eternal damnation or God inflicting fire and brimstone to those unrepentant souls who slipped up are not ideas that mean much to me.
How exactly can this be said to kids without giving them mixed signals? I want to say something like this, but I don’t know how, and I’m a little afraid to.
I’m in a real muddle too about how to teach sexual morality to my kids (both “solo” and “duo”… if you know what I mean)
mackay11 wrote:Ann wrote:How exactly can this be said to kids without giving them mixed signals? I want to say something like this, but I don’t know how, and I’m a little afraid to.
I’m in a real muddle too about how to teach sexual morality to my kids (both “solo” and “duo”… if you know what I mean)
I feel I fumble through it, as I do with most parent things. I try to prepare my thoughts ahead of time of what I think they need to hear and what will help them, then I try to pick the right time so it can best be received. The timing must be right of when I talk to them, the dose of how much I should talk about should be according to their maturity and ability to digest it, and the tact of how I carefully choose my words.I also try to ask questions about what they think to assess where they are at with thoughts, but the sex talks can sometimes be awkward between dad and daughters, but I have just plowed forward so we get past that and just talk. When they start asking me, then I know we’ve established a safe environment to talk.
Here are some points I’ve mentioned to them:
– Gospel teachings have truth, such as modesty, morals, and standards. I just don’t always agree on how others in church decide what those should be.
– Don’t rush to confess details to a bishop…once you do, you are at the mercy of a volunteer with his opinions on your sexuality and life. As well intentioned as they are, some just have different opinions of what is acceptable to God or not, and if you raise the issue, then they feel they MUST tell you…sometimes it is better not to ask their opinions. Talk to your dad before you talk to a bishop.
– We all make mistakes in life. We can recover. (This is how I teach my kids about the atonement). You can’t run from consequences of poor choices, but you musn’t attach self-worth to choices. Let’s talk about real-life consequences of sex: how you view others (don’t make them objects), how intimacy builds a relationship (sometimes you don’t want that when just “dating” before marriage), pregnancy, diseases, impact on future relationships.
– Also, realistically, in our culture…if you want to get married in the temple, you have to live the church standard. If my girls want certain members to be attracted to them, they need to be close to sharing similar views on morality. If they are very different with their standards, they will not attract certain types of guys.
Those are a few. In other words, I try to turn it into a real discussion about sex in life, and church rhetoric like “sin” are avoided. I want them to make educated choices on the reasons committing to moral clean living is a good thing, whether a person is religious or not.
Church threats of losing worthiness, or being “unclean” in the sight of God, are vehemently preached against in my home. “Miracle of Forgiveness” has been given to each of my daughters by church leaders, and I read sections of the last chapters with them to give them my opinions and that although a prophet wrote it, it was a long time ago and was a bit harsh…so they also get to hear my views on how we can’t just take everything church leaders say at face value…but we read their words and then we process it based on personal revelation.
It is interesting how different the kids are. My oldest takes things very literal, and is very very hard on herself, to the point, she thought she would never make it to the CK. I have taught her those are thoughts from the adversary, because they go against the Atonement. My younger daughter just gets mad that church people are so uptight and holier-than-thou and I have to teach her that there is value in the wisdom of church leaders, if we process it through the correct lens, but she cannot ignore the value of what they are saying about being clean, just avoid the guilt trips.
There is no “answer” to give them on what to do about sex. It is a process to teach, talk, process thoughts and feelings, and make it a part of life of who they are becoming and how it fits to their testimony. But it is a natural part of life, like exercise and diets and financial management…there are healthy ways to keep things in balance in life. I try to break down the taboo feeling around sex in their life.
I’d be interested to hear how others talk about it with their kids. But so far, it has helped my older girls not feel so scared or “dirty” about a natural part of our beings or natural sexuality that goes along with having a body, but also stress to them to take it serious because at their age it is something they must deal with and must have opinions set in their mind before going out on a date.
I try to be as straightforward and clinical as is appropriate for their age. Sometimes, I look at them (especially my daughters), grin and say, “Do you really want to know?” That signals the answer is going to be a bit embarrassing for them – but they never say, “No.” The funniest one was when my youngest daughter (still pre-pubescent) was reading Facebook, looked up and said, “What’s an erection?” This is the same girl who told us,
when she was about eight, that someone had told her she spent too much time with one particular friend – a slightly older girl. Her response was priceless: Quote:“I just told them it was none of their business and that I’m not lesbian.”
Ah, parenting . . .
Old-Timer wrote:
The funniest one was when my youngest daughter (still pre-pubescent) was reading Facebook, looked up and said, “What’s an erection?” This is the same girl who told us,when she was about eight, that someone had told her she spent too much time with one particular friend – a slightly older girl. Her response was priceless: Quote:“I just told them it was none of their business and that I’m not lesbian.”
Ah, parenting . . .
Well played…well played!
Heber13 wrote:
I feel I fumble through it, as I do with most parent things. I try to prepare my thoughts ahead of time of what I think they need to hear and what will help them, then I try to pick the right time so it can best be received. The timing must be right of when I talk to them, the dose of how much I should talk about should be according to their maturity and ability to digest it, and the tact of how I carefully choose my words.I also try to ask questions about what they think to assess where they are at with thoughts, but the sex talks can sometimes be awkward between dad and daughters, but I have just plowed forward so we get past that and just talk. When they start asking me, then I know we’ve established a safe environment to talk.
Here are some points I’ve mentioned to them:
– Gospel teachings have truth, such as modesty, morals, and standards. I just don’t always agree on how others in church decide what those should be.
– Don’t rush to confess details to a bishop…once you do, you are at the mercy of a volunteer with his opinions on your sexuality and life. As well intentioned as they are, some just have different opinions of what is acceptable to God or not, and if you raise the issue, then they feel they MUST tell you…sometimes it is better not to ask their opinions. Talk to your dad before you talk to a bishop.
– We all make mistakes in life. We can recover. (This is how I teach my kids about the atonement). You can’t run from consequences of poor choices, but you musn’t attach self-worth to choices. Let’s talk about real-life consequences of sex: how you view others (don’t make them objects), how intimacy builds a relationship (sometimes you don’t want that when just “dating” before marriage), pregnancy, diseases, impact on future relationships.
– Also, realistically, in our culture…if you want to get married in the temple, you have to live the church standard. If my girls want certain members to be attracted to them, they need to be close to sharing similar views on morality. If they are very different with their standards, they will not attract certain types of guys.
Those are a few. In other words, I try to turn it into a real discussion about sex in life, and church rhetoric like “sin” are avoided. I want them to make educated choices on the reasons committing to moral clean living is a good thing, whether a person is religious or not.
Church threats of losing worthiness, or being “unclean” in the sight of God, are vehemently preached against in my home. “Miracle of Forgiveness” has been given to each of my daughters by church leaders, and I read sections of the last chapters with them to give them my opinions and that although a prophet wrote it, it was a long time ago and was a bit harsh…so they also get to hear my views on how we can’t just take everything church leaders say at face value…but we read their words and then we process it based on personal revelation.
It is interesting how different the kids are. My oldest takes things very literal, and is very very hard on herself, to the point, she thought she would never make it to the CK. I have taught her those are thoughts from the adversary, because they go against the Atonement. My younger daughter just gets mad that church people are so uptight and holier-than-thou and I have to teach her that there is value in the wisdom of church leaders, if we process it through the correct lens, but she cannot ignore the value of what they are saying about being clean, just avoid the guilt trips.
There is no “answer” to give them on what to do about sex. It is a process to teach, talk, process thoughts and feelings, and make it a part of life of who they are becoming and how it fits to their testimony. But it is a natural part of life, like exercise and diets and financial management…there are healthy ways to keep things in balance in life. I try to break down the taboo feeling around sex in their life.
I’d be interested to hear how others talk about it with their kids. But so far, it has helped my older girls not feel so scared or “dirty” about a natural part of our beings or natural sexuality that goes along with having a body, but also stress to them to take it serious because at their age it is something they must deal with and must have opinions set in their mind before going out on a date.
Thanks for the comments. I’m not sure I’ve got much to add or contribute. Still need to ponder it awhile.
I may have an interesting story…at least it’s interesting to me…but it might help others? 
I used to see church rules as very black and white…at least, after I got married I did.
Before marriage, I dabbled in the grey quite a bit.
I dare not tell my “number”, but I did choose to share myself with others and I thought I was having a great time.
:shh: I will tell you that for SURE, those were my darkest days. Even my memory of those days is clouded. It’s the absolute strangest thing. I can look back and actually see the “darkness” of that time. I remember the boys I dated. I remember many things that we did…but I also don’t remember a great deal of it. I hate that I lost those years of my life.
Even with my daily activities (yes, daily…but in my defense, I did date the same young man for a few years
Finally, I was asked to be in a class president…and I had to say “no”. I wasn’t ready to “confess” b/c I wasn’t ready to stop my “fun”, but I knew I needed to stop, so I told my bishop all about my transgressions. I went through total heck and back with 2 bishops (first bishop was amazing…second was just not). I even had to go as high as the stake president (and stake disciplinary council…that was after two ward disciplinary councils) who handled it very poorly and threatened ex-communication if I didn’t tell my dad about my sins. Still can’t figure that one out.
Contrast that to my sister who moved in with her boyfriend for a few years, suddenly came back to church and never once faced disciplinary action…and now pretends that she has always been pure and holy.
🙄 But…I’m telling you this b/c I do believe that engaging in sexual activity before reaching a more mature age can really affect the mind and spirit and emotional well-being of an individual. I am sad that my memory is so clouded, but I honestly believe that I simply lost the light of Christ and that clouded my mind during those days. I don’t want MY kids to experience that same “loss”, so I will be encouraging them to wait for sex. I want them to have a healthy sexual relationship with their spouse when the time comes. I don’t want them to blush when they come back from their honeymoon and stupid people ask, “Did you have a good time?” lol. I want my kids to say, “Yes! It was amazing, thanks for asking.” and do so with a huge grin.
I’ve already had “the talk” with my older kids. I presented it as an incredible, amazing, super cool thing that will need to wait.
As far as a teen going solo…I’m still trying to figure that one out.
:geek:
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