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I stand by my original response. Roy wrote:Honestly, I feel that this is a systemic problem…or to put it another way is a side effect of our core competency.
I believe that we are an organization of volunteers that are motivated through a combination of duty, a sense of exclusiveness, and more duty….
That is what I see as the core of the church from an organizational perspective, exclusiveness and duty. It can be extraordinarily effective in getting things done. Many churches are in awe at how much we expect and regularly receive from our membership.
I would say it in almost opposite terms: I believe most members don’t see their activities in terms of “sales”, but, if they did, I think they would frame everything in terms of
LONG-term sales – the longest-term possible. 
I’m not saying that’s how it happens in practical terms, since way too much is done sporadically and on a short-term basis. At the practical level, too much of what happens is structured like short-term sales (pitch something and move on) – but I don’t think most members actually view it that way. Translated into sales terms, I think they would call it long-term sales efforts carried out through repeat attempts over time – waiting for the right time.
I think both ways of phrasing it are valid.
I think about it like Roy does. It is systemic and sometimes not sensitive to individual adaptation of gospel principles. I think it is a result of the programs of the church that people are involved in.
I am 11-yr old scout leader. I visit with the boys and their parents and ask, “what can we do to get you to 1st class by the time you have your 12th birthday?”
Why do I ask that or even care? What is so important about a 1st class scout? Am I implying that Tenderfoot scouts are not important?
I don’t mean to imply that, I’m simply doing my calling, and they have told me the goal is to get scouts to progress in rank. So I try to do that. Hopefully I don’t ever lose sight of the individual and I always love them no matter what their circumstances, but I am part of a scout program, so I ask the questions.
Emphasis on temple recommends are a result of a correlated program in the church, and varies from local regions depending on the priority placed by the leaders, just like missionary work or other stuff. There are good things that can come from it to push people to do things they might not otherwise do. Some people need a helping hand to gently guide them, and they appreciate being cared for and asked.
I think the priesthood leaders who visit and ask are doing it from that perspective, expecting the response to be, “Thank you for being a good shepherd and helping me do what I should be doing. If nobody asked me, I might not do anything about it.”
I don’t think many are very motivated to do hours of service by short-term, manipulative, sales-type thinking. They just don’t always do it right, or sometimes get too presumptuous on how the question would be received, but most honestly do it out of what they think is good. (Perhaps I give too much credit).
Quote:I am 11-yr old scout leader. I visit with the boys and their parents and ask, “what can we do to get you to 1st class by the time you have your 12th birthday?”
Why do I ask that or even care? What is so important about a 1st class scout? Am I implying that Tenderfoot scouts are not important?
I don’t mean to imply that, I’m simply doing my calling, and they have told me the goal is to get scouts to progress in rank. So I try to do that. Hopefully I don’t ever lose sight of the individual and I always love them no matter what their circumstances, but I am part of a scout program, so I ask the questions.
Interesting Herber. Was it a LDS boyscout troop?
I ask because I grew up in a very different boys out troop. Highly recommended, I was happy and learned a lot.
Later my parents took me out of that scout troop and placed me in the church scout group out of pressure from the SP and bishop. But while my former troop did not focus on rank goals or check boxes of accomplishments, mostly just focusing on your talents and taking them to your potentiometers then rank goals or check list accomplishments.
When I started the church scout troop it was all about rank and checking the boxes of accomplishments and bragging rights of those. I became very disinterested and depressed in that scout troop setting.
I left scouting because of that. Years later my dad apologized and could see the different approaches and was sorry he took me out of my first scout troup focusing on my potential in my areas of gifts and talents then rank goals. It was all about developing your talents and knowledge then check boxes and rank.
Seems to be very different styles of direction.
I realize they are thinking long-term, their intent is good, etcetera. And I don’t think they are trying to be manipulative either. I also agree it’s systemic. But I did feel the whole thing was ironic…
Quote:But I did feel the whole thing was ironic…
Yeah, it is that.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Was it a LDS boyscout troop?
Yes…it is an LDS troop.
I’m not very good at scouting. I have only received a little training, but I’m figuring it out as I go. So I mostly rely on the manuals they give me, and follow what they tell me to do.
If I ever got a true vision of scouting, I could probably do things WAY better, but my time and interest is limited, so I resort to doing what I’m told to keep the program moving.
SD, to me…my attitude in scouting is pretty typical of most local leaders in their church callings. They SHOULD do a way better job. They are just doing what they are told and as you said, don’t usually intend to offend us with what they think they are trying to do. Sometimes you can help them see that. Sometimes you just can’t.
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