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Part of my multi-facted concerns about the Church (a big part, actually) is the fact that this organization acts like any other temporal organization. In fact, they have, at times, acted in ways that have been worse than the for-profit organizations I have worked with for several years. This has led to a deep cynicism on my part about our organization we call The Church. So, I”m all ears for those who have counterpoint to contribute:
“Why should I NOT expect the Church to somehow be a kinder, gentler, better, less temporally concerned organization than a for-profit corporation?”
I wish I had some counter argue for ya SD – but I don’t. Cwald — I recognize this might be a hard question for many, so I’m not expecting this thread to have pages upon pages of responses. But I am willing to listen to the arguments against this cynicism; practical, grounded reasons why the Church’s claims to such divine connection do not relieve it of all the interests and behavior of any other temporal organization.
SilentDawning wrote:Cwald — I recognize this might be a hard question for many, so I’m not expecting this thread to have pages upon pages of responses.
But I am willing to listen to the arguments against this cynicism; practical, grounded reasons why the Church’s claims to such divine connection do not relieve it of all the interests and behavior of any other temporal organization.
My first wife worked in the church office building in the 70s and talked about being “church broke.” It meant you could work there and still believe the church is true. A hard thing and a hard lesson but they really are two different things.
GBSmith wrote:SilentDawning wrote:My first wife worked in the church office building in the 70s and talked about being “church broke.” It meant you could work there and still believe the church is true. A hard thing and a hard lesson but they really are two different things.
I’m not sure what you mean by this GBSmith — could you expand upon it a bit? I’m interested.
Silent – I am going to try to answer this backwards using another religion as an example. It has been my privilege to closely associate with two other religions in my life. Because of that I have been able to see how human nature is a battle unto itself. Often times we all do, say, or act in ways we think are Godly, righteous, etc. We can even quote scripture to support the presentation. We even believe whole heartedly that we are right. It is not until the tables somehow turn on us that we get to glimpse the errors that masquerade in our actions. Both of the religions I am referencing also claim to be the only real/true religion. Yet one of them finds everyone else unworthy. They pray often, can recite entire books of scripture, write and sing some great pop Christ music. But a Catholic in their mist is unworthy. They believe in Grace. Huge amounts of Grace. But they struggle to give it to others in ways I wouldn’t have imagined.
The other religion is based deeply on Old Testament traditions. They too are very insolated. They preach Christ-like principles, and they too have hierarchies, cliques, snubbings so forth.
As an outsider looking in – and as a friend working side by side with them I have learned that humans are humans. We all espouse a higher way. We do it in our homes, in our neighborhoods etc. I think that is why the suggestion to “check the mote in thine own eye” is given. LDS people have the same hurts, personality flaws, hungers, needs for validation as everyone else. The only way that can change is when we as people work to change how we do our part. It’s not easy but from all the reading of human suffering I have done the real key to making this life succeed is forgiveness.
It sounds trite and Sunday School answering but more and more stories of people who have truly forgiven their offenders whether it’s in prison camps, holocaust victims, rapist or murders. Something happens. Something miraculous. The same stupid human responses still exist in the world – but they no longer hurt. Everytime the offender sincerely forgives another miracle takes place they share, radiate, teach, preach, plead with others to do the same. They reach out to others and find ways to lift them.
Albert Einstein is credited with saying, “A person truly begins to live when he lives outside himself.”
I think that is the key in church. Even though we are all trying to get to the Celestial Kingdom we get so wrapped up in our journey we totally stomp on others and don’t even see it. Most likely we silently pat ourselves on the back for having said or done something we thought was amazing.
I just don’t think we hold the corner on this. It exists in other religions, too.
SilentDawning wrote:GBSmith wrote:SilentDawning wrote:My first wife worked in the church office building in the 70s and talked about being “church broke.” It meant you could work there and still believe the church is true. A hard thing and a hard lesson but they really are two different things.
I’m not sure what you mean by this GBSmith — could you expand upon it a bit? I’m interested.
The church is a corporation and a business and run by men who have their management styles, goals and agendas that can be dificult for others to deal with in a personal way. Pres. Henry D. Moyle was a successful businessman who brought that style to church leadership and we all suffered for it. The church is a religion whose goal is to proclaim the gospel, etc. and is based on Christian principles. When the two get conflated, and you’re the one caught in the middle it can be hard remembering the church is true.
SilentDawning wrote:Part of my multi-facted concerns about the Church (a big part, actually) is the fact that this organization acts like any other temporal organization.
In fact, they have, at times, acted in ways that have been worse than the for-profit organizations I have worked withfor several years…This has led to a deep cynicism on my part about our organization we call The Church. So, I”m all ears for those who have counterpoint to contribute: “Why should I NOT expect the Church to somehow be a kinder, gentler, better, less temporally concerned organization than a for-profit corporation?”I think the main reason the LDS Church sometimes looks even worse than a profit-oriented corporation rather than a bona fide religious organization that honestly tries to be charitable and benevolent is mostly because of the idea that the leaders are almost always right, and not just current leaders either but past LDS prophets and apostles going back to 1830 and adopted and potentially fictional leaders like Moses, Abraham, Noah, and Adam as well. Real businesses typically have to worry about the competition, customer satisfaction, employee morale/turnover, etc. but our leaders think they are above anything like that as if they don’t have to answer to anyone other than God. So if God isn’t providing them with clear and recognizable feedback then who will?
Basically, they are not held accountable for the end results of their decisions because they are mostly surrounded by people that already agree with them and they don’t need to pay much attention to outside information or opinions if they don’t want to. They probably rationalize that if it was good enough for them to sacrifice so much and jump through all these hoops for the Church then it is good enough for younger generations as well. In most industries it seems like almost everyone their age would already be retired so maybe they just don’t have the energy and/or mental wherewithal to deal with some of the complex problems. If the second coming is just around the corner like they have been saying for decades then theoretically it’s the members that need to be resilient and on their best behavior rather the Church organization because the Church is supposedly already perfect even though the members aren’t.
A lot of the problems I have with the church is rooted in the deeply entrenched cultural belief that prophets are always correct and are always speaking and making policy on God’s behalf. Obviously I am not the only one who has this concern. Since October GC and a renewal of the emphasis on the 14Fs and the two lines of communication, I have very little hope or faith that the church will evolve significantly in my life time.
Basically because of Costa and Oaks, in the last 30 years we have taken one step forward and two steps back.
The only way we can get out of this is if TSM repudiates those messages, and don’t hold your breath that is going to happen.
I think the 14Fs are the single most dangerous and destructive doctrine ever taught in this religion and any others. I hope it is not the spiritual poison that brings the lds church to its knees. Yes, it will make spiritual roadkill of many of us stayLDSers/NOMs, but hopefully it doesn’t entirely cripple the mainstream church and facilitate even more spiritual welfare.
Sad really.
My motive for posting this thread was sincere, though. There is a concept called “Centrality of Beliefs” which describes the fact that a few central beliefs tend to drive a host of other sub-beliefs, and therefore behavior. I have isolated this belief I have that the Church should somehow be different than other organizations due to its divine commission — and on the dimensions I’ve listed above. I find this tends to drive many of my other beliefs.
Think about it — you change this belief, and then, all the other things that bother me about the Church take on a whole new dimension. So, I’m sincere when I say I’m open to reasons why I should NOT view the Church as a corporation that is not much different than other corporations out there. I’m all ears to those who can see valid reasons.
I don’t think I can tolerate this tension much longer. Last Sunday was intolerable.
cwald wrote:I think the 14Fs are the single most dangerous and destructive doctrine ever taught in this religion and any others.
I hope it is not the spiritual poison that brings the lds church to its knees. Yes, it will make spiritual roadkill of many of us stayLDSers/NOMs, but hopefully it doesn’t entirely cripple the mainstream church and facilitate even more spiritual welfare.
Sad really.
Perhaps the 15 Fundamental should be…. Christs last commandment trumps all other 14 fundementals, period. The last commandment, As I have loved you, love one another. I have noticed that there are not any astriks by that saying except for those with tatoos, those who are gay, those who are divorced, those who question, those who (insert any other judgemental crapola here). To break down the last commandment he gave us would be to say, love as he loved, which to me means its more important to feed the poor (physically as well as spiritually) than to build a mall in SLC.
Meh SD I see where you are comming from. Maybe if the government taxed all the profit making undertakings churchs do in the name of charity things would change. Then people would have concrete evidence that their tithes and offerings were going to more than building temples, or missionary funds or helping the poor. I guess what I am saying is if a true transparent accounting was done and open to the public it would change either the way things were handled or change the view from the masses. I am not saying there is corruption or anything is illegal but if the Church is to claim that is of God, then I agree it needs to walk the walk and funding buildings non-church related isn’t walking the walk. Of course I have issues with spending so much money on the best of the best of the best for the temples (not saying there shouldn’t be temples) but come on do they need the highest end stuff, especailly when there are so many other needs in the world. I really have a hard time thinking Jesus/God would rather have the nicest lighting in his temples over feeding the poor.
SD, for me it isn’t any more complicated than: Quote:“Thou hast the words of eternal life. Where else should I go?” (or whatever the exact quote is)
I have lots of issues with the way many things are presented and taught, especially at the local level in lots of places but also from the top. However, when it comes right down to it, I absolutely LOVE “pure Mormonism” (as I see it) – and my life has been enriched greatly over the years in multiple ways as a result of my membership and activity. Mormons are my people, and being Mormon is part of my own “I am”.
So, to address your actual question:
1) I have reached peace with the overall idea of there being two distinct and separate entities that are governed by the LDS global leadership: the “Church” and the “Corporation”. Each has its issues and problems, but each also has its strengths and wonders. My heart might long for a simpler time when things weren’t so complex (or, more precisely, didn’t seem so complex) – but I don’t live in that type of time. I live in my time, and the Church/Corporation duality is what I have – so I accept it for what it is.
2) I mentioned in a recent thread that I attend a religion (or a denomination); I construct a theology; I accept my own faith. (or something like that – not something I had put together until my comment in that thead, so it’s not memorized) Part of the religion I attend includes a for-profit Corporation – which is run, at the top, by the same people who lead the non-profit Church. That has nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with my theology OR my faith.
3) The Church went through two periods (quite long periods) of extreme poverty – so much so that there was real, deep concern for extended periods of time that it would cease to exist. The Church only came out of that poverty when it formalized tithing as a requirement of temple attendance and called a couple of people, in particular, to help manage the finances in a more professional manner. They did so well that we now are in a situation where the Church could weather the current financial storm, for example, without the previous fears of doom.
3a) Therefore, given the two choices (poverty and imminent threat of serious difficulty and debt vs. wealth and financial stability), I have little problem choosing the latter – even though it brings with it its own issues and problems.
4) Our current global leaders are men who are of a generation that actually lived through or heard stories as children of the Great Depression AND whose parents and grandparents lived through the disenfranchiement years of the polygamy persecution AND who were young leaders in the mid-1900’s time of serious financial crisis. I don’t think it’s realistic (or useful or wise) to require them not to be concerned about establishing a wall to keep that type of situation from happening again – again, even though it brings with it its own issues and problems.
5) Living in the time of Joseph brought its own rewards and benefits to visionary explorers, but it also brought the pain of bad money management to the average settlers in the Church – the vast majority of whom suffered greatly due to that mismangement and lack of financial acumen. It’s a trade-off, in a very real way – and it’s a trade-off I (as a minority member in that regard) amd willing to make for the majority of the membership who crave security so deeply. I’ve learned the hard way that my tendency to pursue a dream has negative consequences for the woman I love most who wants nothing more than stability and security . . . so I have intentionally down-sized my dream pursuing in order to strike a balance that will benefit her the most. (and if I have to “sacrifice” one way or the other, I sacrifice in her direction now)
There’s more I could write, but that probably is enough for now.
SilentDawning wrote:My motive for posting this thread was sincere, though. There is a concept called “Centrality of Beliefs” which describes the fact that a few central beliefs tend to drive a host of other sub-beliefs, and therefore behavior…
I have isolated this belief I have that the Church should somehow be different than other organizations due to its divine commission— and on the dimensions I’ve listed above. I find this tends to drive many of my other beliefs…Think about it — you change this belief, and then, all the other things that bother me about the Church take on a whole new dimension. So, I’m sincere when I say I’m open to reasons why I should NOT view the Church as a corporationthat is not much different than other corporations out there. I’m all ears to those who can see valid reasons. It helps me to not blame Church leaders too much for their mistakes to the point that it makes me angry if I try to see things from their perspective. I assume they are typically just TBM apologists where even if they don’t understand why Joseph Smith did some things the way he did they still believe he restored the “fullness of the gospel” and that other LDS prophets have diligently kept the Church on track until now so supposedly no major changes are needed at this point. So they probably don’t give more money to the poor or try to make things better for members simply because they are waiting for direction from God and they don’t want to make a mistake by changing things too much on their own from what they have inherited.
Building more temples was a no-brainer if you equate temple ordinances and temple worthiness with salvation because then they would be trying to bring salvation to as many people as possible. The mall sort of made sense as an investment to try to keep downtown Salt Lake from being a burned out crime-ridden area especially with all the people that visit temple square. I’m sure they weren’t planning on critics having such a field day with this and it’s easy to second guess their decisions in hindsight but I honestly don’t think they know any better most of the time.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:The mall sort of made sense as an investment to try to keep downtown Salt Lake from being a burned out crime-ridden area especially with all the people that visit temple square. I’m sure they weren’t planning on cynics having such a field day with this and it’s easy to second guess their decisions in hindsight but I honestly don’t think they know any better most of the time.
My wife is from North Ogden. I understand that the area immediately around the LDS Ogden temple was turning “burned out and crime-ridden.” If I understand correctly the church purchased a neighboring shopping mall and tore it down to be replaced with high end condos. I don’t believe I would have ever heard about it if my wife hadn’t pointed them out to me as she told me how bad things were getting before the church stepped in. If protecting the area around just any old temple is important, I imagine some preventative maintenance of the center and Mecca of our faith, our showcase to the world, may also be in order.
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