OK, I’ll try to listen with an open mind

[Anonymous]

You have to let go of fear, PiperAlpha. If you really believe that this life is fleeting, there’s not a whole lot worth fearing anyway.

Remember, Paul taught:

Quote:

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

There’s an interesting scene in the final installation of the Chronicles of Narnia, The Last Battle. The dwarves who had passed through a stable door, the portal to the next life (Aslan’s country – heaven) were oblivious to the glorious world around them. In spite of being seated at a table laden with delicacies and rich foods of every kind, decorated with crystalware and the finest china, they believed they were huddled in the dark, musty, filth of a small stable. They simply could not see things as they actually were. When Lucy tries to give them food, they are convinced she is shoving manure at them. Of them, Lewis writes “They were so afraid of being taken in that they could not be taken out.”

Living in fear is like that. It’s smelling dung instead of the minted lamb and tasting stagnant water where fine wine is poured.

We can get to the point where we don’t fear because we realize that people who sin against us are doing so because they can’t see the feast. They are the pitiful creatures trapped, if only in their own minds, in the small world of the sullied stable. Knowing this, has helped me to feel compassion for those who offend me instead of pain considering my own suffering at their hands.

[Anonymous]

or I’m the poor creature that can’t see the food. :think: It is hard when I’m in pain, to see clearly.

[Anonymous]

Katzpur wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

“Thou hast the words of eternal life. Where else should I go?” (or whatever the exact quote is)

“Pure Mormonism” is beautiful. I totally embrace it. It’s the policies and the politics that drive me up a wall. And when I’m criticized for criticizing the policies and the politics, I just want to just give up and throw in the towel. But then I think, “Where else should I go?” There isn’t anywhere else for me.

I am working on this. I am more comfortable with LDS theology then I am with the theology of other religions. It’s the people creating judgements, policies and politics that drive me nuts. I am trying to find people in my area that don’t drive me nuts to associate with in church. From what association I have had with people outside the church, it is even more frustrating to establish connections to them.

I go nowhere else because a) I don’t know where else I could go that would be “trading up” , b) I am not interested in spending the resources (including emotional family currency) to find another place right now, c) I don’t believe that with my current mindset and understanding/developmental phase, that I am qualified to make that type of decision now. I feel that I lost a lot of a theological foundation when I realized how little I really knew, and am striving to progress to the point where I would be out of shock (I am sure there is a better word out there) enough to be qualified to make that decision (if I ever decide I need to leave).

I have heard it said more than once that knowing how little you actually know about something is the beginning of wisdom in that current field – so I am doing what I can to set up my environment for success and trusting the process (slightly).

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

1. Why include the love component. Why not just do the humility train of thought and forgive at that point. Why is the whole love component necessary, in your opinion?

2. Do you think it’s possible to get the forgiveness from a different sources than humility and love? For example, I’m reading The Beginner’s Guide to Walking the Buddha’s Eightfold Path. The author quotes the Dalai Lama who observed:

Quote:

Now, when you recognize that all beings are equal in both their desire for happiness and their right to obtain it, you automatically feel empathy and closeness to them….Nor is this wish selective; it applies equally to all.

Applying this to forgiveness, if you think about someone who has wronged you, and realize their actions were simply their version of a pursuit of happiness, and that you got hurt in the way, doesn’t that help one forgive, and see that we are all simply trying to achieive happiness? And that at times, we collide with each other?

I reminds me of a comment my Dad made once. We were in business together, and someone kept calling us for sales reasons. I said I was getting a little disturbed at the interruptions, and my Dad said “He’s just trying to earn a living”. Same principle — when someone wrongs you “they think they are simply making their lives better”.

When I think of a woman who distributed this very nasty note to the entire Ward council about me personally (which hurt me deeply) years ago, if you look at her actions as simply a quest for trying to do what she felt would bring her the most happiness (rightly or wrongly) it doesn’t seem as personal, and paves the way to forgiveness….

I’m sure there are other sources, and I would be open to listening to them. I so detest having grudges anymore.

When reading this email chain it seems that the most important part is setting both the offendee and offender an as equal footing as possible. M&G stated it in terms of being as equal a sinner as the other person. The Dalai Lama quote seems to state that others are elevated to the point of the person in the eyes of the person “equal in their desire for happiness and their right to obtain it”.

When equality is achieved, empathy usually tags along (though sometimes it gets transformed into charity I think).

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Thanks. I think it would be a lot easier just to quit at the humility or “equality of rights to pursue happiness” approach suggested by Buddhism. In fact, for me, to simply get to this phase would be an achievement. Perhaps I need to let that much settle on me for a while until I’m ready to actually love the person.

Also, what about self-protection and trust? This is tricky, because claiming the right to no longer trust can feed the grudge in a back-door kind of way. However, there can be good reasons for never trusting the person again in this life. And then, we have the need to protect oneself from such things as depression or mental hardship once an unrepentent person has shown the capacity to inflict such suffering on us. Once you get your thoughts together on trust, I’d love to hear what you think about its relationship to forgiveness.

I think that both can co-exist.

I love my toddler to pieces – but I don’t trust her to act differently than she is developmentally capable of doing so. I, as her parent, also require that she continues to strive to the developmental limits regularly. I don’t condone her acting out – I will try to set up an environment where she does not have to act out – and I will temper consequences to reflect that (the ones I can impose). However, neither do I go out of my way to encourage this behavior of hers, nor do I suspend ALL consequences of acting out.

The grudge feeding comes in when we impose a “should” into the equation. “That person should know better, so I can’t trust them”. The “should” de-equalizes the standing of both people and goes back into unrealistic expectations.

For me, the acting definition I have is “Forgiveness means giving up my right to hurt you because you have hurt me.” It means refusing to keep score while observing that there are developmental relapses in this area for some people. It means “suffering” or “allowing” certain circumstances to a certain extent.

For me, the acting (short answer) definition of trust is “A judgement call of a person’s capabilities based on personal observations, developmental factors, and pertinent communication between individuals”. I “trust” my husband more than I do my 8 year old daughter because he has covered more developmental ground, I have a longer time observing him, and he is a better communicator. But this means that I “trust” my daughter will not always tell me the truth, or communicate with me effectively, or make the best choices.

I will freely admit that in my current faith/identity transition I have replaced optimism with pragmatism for a lot of things.

[Anonymous]

AmyJ wrote:

For me, the acting definition I have is “Forgiveness means giving up my right to hurt you because you have hurt me.” It means refusing to keep score while observing that there are developmental relapses in this area for some people.

Thank you for that. I like the definition. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

PiperAlpha wrote:

That’s one of the best sermons on forgiveness and trust I’ve ever heard. Thank you, Mercyngrace.

How then, do we forgive (as we are commanded to do) when we are so hurt that we don’t want to…and that is just being honest?

For me, this question becomes a trust of time and doing your best to have the most positive/neutral behavior for it. I think that in times of great hurt, a person will work through the “Stages of Grief” towards that other person. Eventually acceptance is possible – and both parties can move on. To me, that does not mean that Party A becomes best friends with Party B. It just means that Party A may set specific (and lasting) boundaries regarding all interactions.

PiperAlpha wrote:

mercyngrace wrote:

Because we extend this mercy from a perspective of honesty, we are going to set boundaries that protect ourselves and the offender such that both parties can begin to work toward renewed trust.

What if I don’t want to build a renewed trust anymore for fear of being hurt again?

If it becomes a cost-benefit analysis that repeat unwise decisions will be made causing great hurt that can’t be overcome over and over again, then I feel at times it is to gain distance from the situation.

I feel the greatest challenge fear has is that becomes a boogeyman of its own accord. If the fear is valid due to circumstances, than it is wise to give heed to it when setting up your environment and moving on as soon as possible. If the fear is because of what might happen – well there are a lot of things that might happen…

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