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In the past I never had any problems with Joseph taking whatever good he saw and fusing it with Mormonism. When it gets fuzzy is when he says that the “good” has a historical context that it doesn’t seem to have. I always understood that Joseph used masonry in the endowment to teach people principles – and I have absolutely no problem with that. But I do have issues when I find out that he said that the Masonic rituals were inspired by god from the beginning, and that he restored it. (Very loose quote I admit:) ) – as most people know, even most masons don’t believe that masonry dates back to ancient times – but was founded in the 1500s (give or take).
What are your thoughts on that?
One thought could be that the people that started masonry (in 1500s) we’re indeed seeking for ways to do good and thus inspired – hence JS comment later on that he was restoring the ritual/making true masonry.
??
Let the discussion begin!
First it would be useful to have the exact quote by Joseph if anyone has it out there, i am not familiar with it but would love to source it. Thanks! I agree it would be nice to have a link to the quote. That said, I’m not sure Masonry actually started in the Middle Ages, rather those are the earliest writings we have about it. That time period is also called the Dark Ages for a reason – few people were able to read and write, and coupled with the natural loss of documents over time there are few written records of anything. Whether most Masons believe that it dates to Biblical times or not (I’m not sure how we know what most Masons believe), there are historians who do believe it does and there is evidence it does. Not to be rude or argumentative, but I think you may be projecting what you believe on others (“as most people know, even most masons”). The fact is “most people” don’t know anything about the Masons, just like most people don’t know much about Mormons (and even less about the temple rites). So…I still really don’t care. If Joseph Smith was a prophet (and I believe he was), it doesn’t matter how God revealed stuff to him. That’s the same way I feel about evolution – I don’t care how God created man, I simply believe he did, the how doesn’t matter.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree it would be nice to have a link to the quote. That said, I’m not sure Masonry actually started in the Middle Ages, rather those are the earliest writings we have about it. That time period is also called the Dark Ages for a reason – few people were able to read and write, and coupled with the natural loss of documents over time there are few written records of anything. Whether most Masons believe that it dates to Biblical times or not (I’m not sure how we know what most Masons believe), there are historians who do believe it does and there is evidence it does. Not to be rude or argumentative, but I think you may be projecting what you believe on others (“as most people know, even most masons”). The fact is “most people” don’t know anything about the Masons, just like most people don’t know much about Mormons (and even less about the temple rites).
So…I still really don’t care. If Joseph Smith was a prophet (and I believe he was), it doesn’t matter how God revealed stuff to him. That’s the same way I feel about evolution – I don’t care how God created man, I simple believe he did, the how doesn’t matter.
The signs associated with modern masonry are leftovers from those used by medieval masons so that they could travel (hence the term journeyman) to a different city, gain entrance to a guild hall and work as a mason. A master mason was someone who’d mastered the craft and could supervise a project. From the information given me by a close friend who was a mason, members of the craft don’t believe there’s any relationship between “speculative” or modern masonry and the stories about Solomon’s temple or any truth to the stories about Hiram Abif. It’s just a fraternal organization that grew out of the Enlightment.
My understanding is back in Joseph’s day it was a common understanding among Masons that it dated all the way back to Solomon’s temple, Joseph and others around him made statements that reflect this belief of the time. Today I think many if not most Masons (such as Greg Kearney) have studied reliable histories of Masonry that demonstrate it is not likely that the Masonic rituals go back that far. To me this issue is one among many that demonstrate prophets are also human and are always influenced by their time and surroundings.
You might be interested in this podcast: http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories-podcast-005-masonry-and-mormonism-and-interview-with-greg-kearney/ I heard it a few months ago and thought it helped explain some things about masonry itself, and how it relates to the temple. The man interviewed is both a mason and a practicing Mormon, so it is a pretty good perspective I thought.
Honestly, I have no problems with the use of Masonic symbols back then or now – regardless of whether or not they are of ancient origin. I wouldn’t mind if they were changed to 70’s or 80’s hand jive signs or something from a widely popular movie now, if that resonated with most members. I care little about the form; I care a lot about the meaning being conveyed. Once the meaning is lost, I would opt for a different form.
That’s exactly my point. I do not care about using masonry in the temple. Not at all. It’s more if JS sees the masonry rituals. Asks The Lord about it and it is revealed to him that it is a corrupted form of temple worship that he needs to restore. That is more problematic in my book.
– I’ll have to find the actual quote one of these days.. And yes. I did listen to the podcast a couple of months back. Really interesting stuff!
Bear wrote:That’s exactly my point. I do not care about using masonry in the temple. Not at all.
It’s more if JS sees the masonry rituals. Asks The Lord about it and it is revealed to him that it is a corrupted form of temple worship that he needs to restore. That is more problematic in my book.
– I’ll have to find the actual quote one of these days.. And yes. I did listen to the podcast a couple of months back. Really interesting stuff!
OK, Bear, you lost me here. Is your issue with Joseph receiving a revelation like this? Or that he felt he needed to restore something that wasn’t real? I’m really confused.
Hi Bear, I feel your pain. I remember having the same concern and having to sort out what the evidence says a prophet can be and where our expectations are probably unfounded. Let’s try to break this down:
Bear wrote:…If JS sees the masonry rituals, asks The Lord about it and it is revealed to him that it is a corrupted form of temple worship that he needs to restore. That is more problematic in my book.
There are several similar quotes but I believe the most prominent one comes from Heber C. Kimball:
Quote:Bro[ther] Joseph says Masonry was taken from priesthood but has become degenerated, but many things are perfect. (Letter from Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, 17 June 1842; quoted in Parry, Temples of the Ancient World: Ritual and Symbolism, p.577)
This idea of the time follows the common understanding from back then that Masonry dated back to Solomon’s temple. Now that our best evidence shows the chance of that history is very small it changes the color of “revelations” and the attached assumptions such as this.Now let’s look closely at what was said – HC Kimball attributes an idea to Joseph, we assume the information must have come through revelation – after all the endowment came through revelation. But if we step back and look at it with a new perspective, is it possible that the simple core of the endowment can be inspired and good for its purpose while some of the details surrounding that inspiration are better explained as cultural “tag-alongs”? This is what I hear bro Kearney saying, my take-away is just because prophets don’t separate elements of their own understanding from the pieces of “pure inspiration” that does not negate the value or usefulness of the good things they do reveal.
My thoughts anyway, which have taken me some time to grow into.
I attended the temple often when I was younger, seeking some insight into what it meant. I even participated in a Sealing group for sometime as well with the temple president to gain his insight into the temple. So here are my thoughts about it and Masonry: My first initiation into the temple and the Masonry involved was shocking. I was absolutely appalled and repelled by it. I really had no idea what was going on and I found it completely alien to anything I had seen in the LDS Church up to that point. And I still hold that view today. At first, I wanted no part of it and never wanted to go back again. Then I thought I had missed something and I wanted to get to the bottom of what was going on, so I attended multiple endowments to listen and fully understand everything that was being said. I also wanted to see the sealing ceremony and joined a sealing group to understand that as well. The result was no change in my initial view of it.
However, now later in my life and having experienced one of these beings as JS must have, I have a different view of the temple. I still believe the Masonry is nonsense and not that interesting. But, I think I understand it. It was JS’s way of trying to come to terms with encountering these beings and how he was trying to relate his experiences to us through this ceremony (I view it more of a production or a play since movies hadn’t yet been invented and he didn’t have a better way of explaining it). And I have decided that there is more to the temple ceremony than I thought as well. I believe if you look, there are many instances within it that speak of multiple worlds where this kind of thing has gone on before. That temples have been used as a place where primitive beings like us can meet with, speak with, and experience these more advanced beings from outside our world. And that a true temple (I’m not pretending the LDS version is anywhere close to that today) is a place of learning about this life, how they exist, and it gives us a taste of how we can develop after our deaths.
Quote:The square, to square our actions; The compasses, to circumscribe and keep us within bounds with all mankind
Duncan’s Masonic Monitor of 1866The story of the Brother of Jared comes to mind. Sometimes the Lord does not dictate there is only one way to get something done (like light up a boat). He allows His prophet to suggest a way to get done what is asked, and the Lord OK’s that suggestion or provides guidance otherwise. Accepting a masonic-influenced temple ritual that was close to Joseph’s world-view is comparable (to me) to touching a stone and making it light up. Its one way to do it. And Joseph seemed demonstrate a gift with several things (scriptures, church organizations, mummy scrolls, etc) where he could take some things before him and expound them to bring new meaning and new teachings, regardless of their true origins.
That would be problematic if the Lord came down and specifically stated…
Quote:it is a corrupted form of temple worship that he [God] needs to restore
That might present a God who is either dishonest or knows something we don’t yet know about it, but seems to go against our current conventional understanding of the origins of masonry.
I find it harder to believe God was dictating to Joseph the temple ceremony, and find it more plausible Joseph was approaching God with an idea of how to do it, and that Joseph speculated on its origins to others.
I discussed masonry in the temple with a relative recently and said that most of the Masonic elements were added after be became a mason but had no issue with that. Elder Uchtdorf uses aviation metaphors to teach, drawing on the symbols of his context. Joseph did the same. My relative said he’d also studied it but saw it differently. He said that apparently Joseph had received the endowment in full before becoming a mason and, when being initiated into masonry had told the people in the Masonic ceremony “I could teach you the true meaning/origin of that token/symbol etc.”
I hadn’t heard that before and didn’t want to start “calling for references” – especially if doing so would cause concerns for my relative.
Has anyone else heard of this? Sounds like something fairmormon might drum up.
I don’t think FAIRMormon would claim that. There are some limits, after all. :silent:
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