Ok… Masonry again.

[Anonymous]

mackay11 wrote:

He said that apparently Joseph had received the endowment in full before becoming a mason and, when being initiated into masonry had told the people in the Masonic ceremony “I could teach you the true meaning/origin of that token/symbol etc.”

If you put a timeline together of events, locations, and involved parties…I don’t think it would likely support that scenario is how it happened.

Its a nice little story to suggest the temple revelations independently were produced directly from heaven, which then showed the deficiencies of the existing rituals surrounding the early saints…that restorationist view of “all things were restored in fullness” and “things lost were restored” is a nice story for believers.

Historical facts seem to suggest that things were restored in piecemeal, evolving over time until we have what we have today. Joseph was influenced by his surroundings. I’m OK with that, and accept it is what it is, and find symbolic meaning in it.

But I don’t think Hyrum would even agree with the statement the endowment was received in full before Joseph became a mason. Hyrum and others were involved in it pretty early on, and it influenced a great deal, as can be seen in the Nauvoo period especially.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I should start another thread but I am confused on how you can be Masonic and go to the LDS temple. The recommend interview asks “Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?” Aren’t Masonic teachings not in harmony with the LDS church? I don’t know much about it but what I read seems to show that you do not need Christ to enter heaven (which is contrary). Just curious

[Anonymous]

I often hear critics claim that Joseph Smith borrowed from masonry because he came one. But do the mason teach Christ’s descent into hell, the gospel being preached to the dead? I don’t think so. Google image Christ’s descent into hell, hades, limbo, purgatory, the Anastasis = Resurrection, and see all the different types of hand and wrist grasping in these art works that span through the centuries. So how come Christians, critical of JS, don’t say he borrowed from these? I guess it would counter their claim that Mormonism isn’t “Christian.” https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=685&q=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&oq=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&gs_l=img.12…9580.29478.0.32335.78.16.7.55.62.2.296.2630.4j5j7.16.0….0…1ac.1.32.img..58.20.1278.7S5-fRL1VCI” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=685&q=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&oq=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&gs_l=img.12…9580.29478.0.32335.78.16.7.55.62.2.296.2630.4j5j7.16.0….0…1ac.1.32.img..58.20.1278.7S5-fRL1VCI

Are the robes or garments masons wear symbolic of deification? Do masons wear white robes, protective robes, that are worn after symbolical washing away of sins? Like the early Christians did?

See article on this blog, scroll down to: Passover, Easter & Garment Types of Deification in the Resurrection (Easter Sunday, 4-8-2012).

THE ARMOR OF GODS (PROTECTIVE SKINS OR GARMENTS IN HISTORY & COLOR SYMBOLISM) by Darell Thorpe

http://drivetimelivearchivespromossources.blogspot.com/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://drivetimelivearchivespromossources.blogspot.com/

Do the masons perform hand clasping weddings to last in the after life? Just like historic Christianity. (Google image hand fasting, hand clasping in weddings, hand clasping on tomb stones). Early Christianity is filled with hand clasping wedding scenes and art works, hand clasping wedding rings, hand clasping tomb stones, where the husband & wife greet each other in the after life, by hand clasping. Why don’t critics say Joseph Smith borrowed from this? From historic Christianity?

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=685&q=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&oq=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&gs_l=img.12…9580.29478.0.32335.78.16.7.55.62.2.296.2630.4j5j7.16.0….0…1ac.1.32.img..58.20.1278.7S5-fRL1VCI#q=Hand+clasping+in+Christian+weddings%2C+tomb+stones%2C+hand+fasting&tbm=isch” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=685&q=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&oq=Christ’s+descent+into+hell%2C+limbo%2C+purgatory%2C+hades%2C+the+Anastasis&gs_l=img.12…9580.29478.0.32335.78.16.7.55.62.2.296.2630.4j5j7.16.0….0…1ac.1.32.img..58.20.1278.7S5-fRL1VCI#q=Hand+clasping+in+Christian+weddings%2C+tomb+stones%2C+hand+fasting&tbm=isch

Masonry has its roots in historic Christianity, that’s where they get their rituals partly from. There are thousands of stone carvings showing different kinds of hand and wrist grasps, in historic Christianity, of gloves with monial symbols on them being clasped, the monial symbol is in the middle of the hand, symbolic of Christ’s nail mark wounds.

Sources: Evidences That “Historic Biblical Earlier Christianity” Had Temple Type “Mysteries” http://restoredgospelevidences.blogspot.com/2011/03/evidences-that-historic-biblical.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://restoredgospelevidences.blogspot.com/2011/03/evidences-that-historic-biblical.html

Do masons teach that Christ went to other nations? Like the early Christians did! 😮 In going to other nations, Christ is often depicted clasping hands of those he meets up with, like for example Christ as a pilgrim in Fra Angelico’s 1440 art work of Christ as Pilgrim. 😮 http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico45.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.abcgallery.com/A/angelico/angelico45.html

Why don’t critics say Joseph Smith borrowed this from historic Christianity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7cnacqgMZI&list=PL0B6EF521DAC91502&index=8” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7cnacqgMZI&list=PL0B6EF521DAC91502&index=8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqqMmIGuWhI&list=PL0B6EF521DAC91502&index=7” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqqMmIGuWhI&list=PL0B6EF521DAC91502&index=7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5MZIPPu4OA&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLF77C8E735D3F732D” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5MZIPPu4OA&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLF77C8E735D3F732D

Christ’s descent into limbo, 4th-5th centuries see: Early Christian Art, The Late Roman and Byzantine Empires from the 3rd to the 7th centuries, fig. 83: “Venice, St. Mark’s” 5th cent., “Christ in Limbo.” Also, on left, Allen Richardson’s, 1992 drawing of a 4th or 5th century carving of Christ’s descent into limbo, Adam reaches around pillar to clasp Christ’s right hand (used with permission). For an original see: Walter Lowrie, Art In The Early Church, (NY, NY: Pantheon Books, 1947), plate 100).

[See background scenes, where two Monks greet each other as if seeing Christ in each other, according to Monastic rules & greetings. Art by Filippino Lippi, The Madonna Appearing to St. Bernard, about 1486, Florence, Badia. See: The Book of Art, A Pictorial Encyclopedia of Painting, Drawing, and Sculpture, vol. 2, Italian Art to 1850, edited by Professor Mario Monteverdi, (Grolier Inc.)].

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-adCDFGVTjpc/TYu2etshTfI/AAAAAAAAAJM/YnDkS_nZ428/s1600/Numerous+Hand+grips.jpg” class=”bbcode_url”>https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-adCDFGVTjpc/TYu2etshTfI/AAAAAAAAAJM/YnDkS_nZ428/s1600/Numerous+Hand+grips.jpg

[Peter clasp hands of souls ascending up to the door to paradise on the right hand side of Christ’s Last Judgment scene above, but not seen in this close up. Conques Last judgment detail Portal, tympanum Abbey Church of St Foy Conques, Aveyrou, France begun 1100, 12th century stone work. [Below left see: Walter Oakeshott, Classical Inspiration In Medieval Art, (NY: Frederick A. Praeger, 1959), plate 80: “A Carolingian ivory masterpiece: France, 9th cent.” Ascension of Christ into heaven, hand of God the Father greeting Christ. Hanns Swarzenski, (2nd ed.), Monuments of Romanesque Art, (Un. of Chicago Press, 1954 & 1967), plate 66, fig. 151. Late 10th cent.: “Christ in Mandorla” for rebirth, or as passage into another realm. Hand of God clasps the wrist of the Son, while an angel clasps hand of Christ. Early Christian Art, The Late Roman & Byzantine Empires from the 3rd to the 7th century, fig. 83. Venice, St. Mark’s 5th cent. Christ in Limbo. Adam reaches around a pillar to clasp right hand of Christ. W. F. Volbach & Max Hirmer, Early Christian Art, (Pub. A Abrams), 93, Munich, Bavarian National Museum, ivory panel, Christ ascending into heaven, cent. 400. God right hand clasping right hand of Christ. Early Christian Art, ibid., The crucifixion. Late 11th or early 12th century. Ivory. Treasure of the Cathedral of Saint Just, Narbonne. Walter Lowrie, Art In The Early Church, 1947, plate 100. Christ descent into limbo, 4th or 5th cent. Joseph Gantner & Marcel Pobe, Romanesque Art In France, (Thames & Hudson, 1956), plate 135, p. 64. Conques (Aveyron), Christ as Judge. See also: Roland H. Bainton, The Horizon of Christianity, (American Heritage Pub. Co., 1964), p. 214-15. Peter clasping hands of souls on right hand side of Christ as judge. Andrew Martindale, Gothic Art, From the 12th to 15th century, (NY: Praeger, 1967), p. 132 & 133, Illustration 98: Belleville Breviary from the workshop of Jean Pucelle; probably between 1323 & 1326. Arm of God clasping hand of a person. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 21, p. 809, fig. 2-b. Old Testament prefigurations of Marriage, fragments of a Flemish silk & wool. Seven Sacraments. Tapestry from the workshop of Pasquier Grenier, Tournai, 3rd quarter of 15th cent. Claude Schaeffner, Artistic Consultant: Jean-Clarence Lambert & others, Gothic Painting I, p. 48, (England: Ed. S.A. Geneva 1968. Master of Westphalia 14th century. Christ in Purgatory, Wallraf-Richartz Museum, Cologne. Christ grasping Adam by his hands. See also: The Lost Books of The Bible & The Forgotten Books of Eden, (Alpha House, 1926 & 27), p. 86-88, “The Gospel of Nicodemus.” Also: A Library of Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, vol. 2, p. 264-5, S. Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture On the Mysteries. Art A History of Painting, Sculpture, Architecture, vol. 1, p. 327, fig. 410. Benedetto Antelami. Descent from the cross. Relief. 1178. Cathedral of Parma, Italy, “…the lifting of Christ hand from the Cross becomes an act of ritual grace, accomplished with the aid of an angel.” Jean Porcher, Medieval French Miniatures, 38- The anumciation, 2nd half of the 12th cent. In the temple. Luke 1:10-11. Hanns Swarzenski, Monuments of Romanesque Art, (Un. of Chicago Press, 1954 & 1967), plate 15, fig. 35, the ascension, Lorraine, cent. 1000. Hand of god extends down from heaven to grasp the hand of Christ].

Point being, in conclusion. Masonry wasn’t the source for Joseph Smith’s Temple endowment, it was a restoration of what we see all over historic Christianity. See for example what Cyril of Jerusalem wrote in his lectures on the Mysteries; what Gregory of Nyssa said in his closing remarks on The Baptism of Christ.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3101.htm” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3101.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2910.htm” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2910.htm

[Anonymous]

restoredgospelman wrote:

Point being, in conclusion. Masonry wasn’t the source for Joseph Smith’s Temple endowment….

I think that is bad conclusion to make.

I tend to believe George Miller, but thanks for the links and info.

[Anonymous]

I agree it wasn’t THE source, but I think it’s hard to claim logically that it wasn’t A source for a part of it.

I’m totally okay with that, and I don’t think it needs refutation – but that’s just me.

[Anonymous]

Bear,

I believe that JS could not distinguish what came from his own mind from what came from God. I don’t think he tried. I believe he thought God spoke THROUGH him more than TO him.

So, I have no problem with JS making things up or heavily borrowing from his environment, because I believe when he did it, he went with what resonated to him as being from God.

In the specific case, it’s easy to see how JS could have looked at the Masonic rituals that Masons themselves said were ancient going back to the early Temple, and then how JS could have accepted it as such, but then looked at it as having lost its meaning, which he was in a position to restore.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I believe that JS could not distinguish what came from his own mind from what came from God. I don’t think he tried. I believe he thought God spoke THROUGH him more than TO him.

That might be the best, most concise description I’ve ever read about how I view Joseph, especially in the last decade or so of his life. I might be completely wrong about that, but it’s how I see it right now.

[Author]

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