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Heber shared this in another thread. I loved it and thought it was worth its own thread. Omni 1:2-3 says:
Quote:I of myself am a wicked man, and I have not kept the statutes and the commandments of the Lord as I ought to have done.
…. I had kept these plates according to the commandments of my fathers; and I conferred them upon my son Amaron. And I make an end
.
We can question Omni’s self-evaluation, but, taking the words for what they actually say, it appears that someone who might not have felt comfortable answering temple recommend questions, for example, still did hisnpart simply by doing his duty as a son and a father and passing on his heritage to his descendants.
If someone like that can be a keeper of the sacred records (a guardian of the Law), we probably don’t need to stress too much about our own non-orthodoxy.
Maybe you don’t need to be a Nephi. Maybe being an Omni is enough.
That is my favorite book in the BoM. I love the idea of leaders being too busy living to stop and pontificate. Passing it on, really is enough. Old Timer wrote:
Heber shared this in another thread. I loved it and thought it was worth its own thread.Omni 1:2-3 says:
Quote:I of myself am a wicked man, and I have not kept the statutes and the commandments of the Lord as I ought to have done.
…. I had kept these plates according to the commandments of my fathers; and I conferred them upon my son Amaron. And I make an end
.
Quote:Maybe you don’t need to be a Nephi. Maybe being an Omni is enough.
Never thought of it that way, but it’s definitely my way of thinking. Very insightful thought! I don’t dissuade anyone from the church, and don’t want to rain on anyone else’s parade. Will support my family in their pursuit of LDS living, and have.
I don’t consider myself a wicked man though — although I know I’ve got my own deficiencies like anyone else.
Wasn’t it Heber, not Nibs, who posted originally that scripture? That’s not quite how I read it, but an interesting take. But with respect, I do think you’re reading pretty heavily into it, with lots of additional commentary to support your view… Omni wasn’t talking about his lack of faith or belief. He said he hadn’t kept the commandments. He was upfront about “not keeping the commandments” too. In Omni’s situation, he said that despite not keeping the commandments, he was still going to keep this one, and passed the record on. It had nothing to do with the other commandments he had broken. It had nothing to do with giving nuanced answers to the Bishop to get him to do what you want. It had nothing to do with a lack of belief (which applies to half the recommend). “Worthiness” wasn’t a requirement.
… And it never talks about why he chose to do what he did. There weren’t many ethical considerations for him to take into account behind his decision. Do you lie to keep social order? Do you maintain the status-quo, with all its faults, because you’re afraid the alternative is worse? Do you pass on a heritage, with a complete mixed bag of good and evil… because your parents did, and it’s what’s expected of you? Can there be integrity, if you are act against your beliefs for some “greater good” (i.e. Bill Reel’s recording)?
I will change the citation. Thanks. I didn’t mean to imply a direct, exact situation match. I just meant to highlight that someone who considered himself a “wicked man” (not a “valiant example of righteousness”, if you will) did his part in passing on his heritage. That was all.
I think the temple recommend comparison is fine. I know it is not a perfect analogy and has its issues, but I didn’t imply lying to go to the temple or even coming up with nuanced interpretations. Based only on his subjective self-description (which doesn’t say anything about his beliefs or which specific commandments he wasn’t keeping), I am saying Omni might not have been a temple attender in our modern times (and he might have been inactive or semi-active) – but he still kept his people’s sacred records and passed them on to his descendants. He might have fit in quite well here at this site. Maybe not, but it certainly is possible.
In the end, I’m saying we don’t have to be Nephis to stay LDS. Being Omnis is okay – and even honorable.
If you want a cleaner version, something like this would be more fitting. “I, [insert name], was once a faithful believer, but encountered faith crisis. Nonetheless, I supported my family and future generations in keeping the sacred record safe for passing on to my son. My hope is he will be true to his heart and beliefs and most of all, find happiness in his faith”.
I like it. SilentDawning wrote:
If you want a cleaner version, something like this would be more fitting.“I, [insert name], was once a faithful believer, but encountered faith crisis. Nonetheless, I supported my family and future generations in keeping the sacred record safe for passing on to my son. My hope is he will be true to his heart and beliefs and most of all, find happiness in his faith”.
Also like. It is essentially what I have done and I am at peace with it, as is my believing wife and the children who it has affected. It has in fact brought us all closer.
The quote is contradictory. Obviously the man is not completely wicked otherwise he would not pass the record on… But I do not see it as justifying bad behavior otherwise, but duty which is slightly different. He did his duty but only in certain areas. SamBee wrote:
The quote is contradictory. Obviously the man is not completely wicked otherwise he would not pass the record on… But I do not see it as justifying bad behavior otherwise, but duty which is slightly different. He did his duty but only in certain areas.
Well, I’d say most everyone is a mix of good and bad. But in Omni’s shoes, I don’t think it’d require a lot of virtue to take your dad’s journal, write a paragraph, and give it to your son. It wouldn’t have to be more than an afterthought. Maybe a bit of nostalgia.
dande48 wrote:
SamBee wrote:
The quote is contradictory. Obviously the man is not completely wicked otherwise he would not pass the record on… But I do not see it as justifying bad behavior otherwise, but duty which is slightly different. He did his duty but only in certain areas.
Well, I’d say most everyone is a mix of good and bad. But in Omni’s shoes, I don’t think it’d require a lot of virtue to take your dad’s journal, write a paragraph, and give it to your son. It wouldn’t have to be more than an afterthought. Maybe a bit of nostalgia.
I agree, dande…and I think that was the original point being made. It doesn’t HAVE to be more than that. And that could be said for taking a priesthood lineage, adding a few words of a blessing, and pass it on.The priesthood is either going to have power or will be dormant based on how the son takes it and uses it. Regardless of the ordination by the father.
Let’s be ok with some things at church being good enough for just showing up, or just passing it on. Those things are better than not doing those mustard seed steps. Especially if it is meaningful to the collective faith of the family, even if not to the individual faith of the father.
Yes of course he was a mixture of good and bad, but there are two conclusions here: * He did at least two good things, i.e. keeping the records and raising successors.
* Whatever evil he did was not condoned or justified by the former. We don’t know the extent of his evil.
Omni in some ways qualifies as an “also ran”. That’s a horse which didn’t come in first, second or third and which you’d lose your money on.
Heber13 wrote:
Let’s be ok with some things at church being good enough for just showing up, or just passing it on. Those things are better than not doing those mustard seed steps. Especially if it is meaningful to the collective faith of the family, even if not to the individual faith of the father.
Personally, I’m not sure I’m ok with it. The Church is a mixed bag, and sometimes I wonder if it’s really “better” than any alternative. There’s a difference between “not doing anything against” the Church, and facilitating the same cycle that caused me so much hurt.
dande48 wrote:
Heber13 wrote:
Let’s be ok with some things at church being good enough for just showing up, or just passing it on. Those things are better than not doing those mustard seed steps. Especially if it is meaningful to the collective faith of the family, even if not to the individual faith of the father.
Personally, I’m not sure I’m ok with it. The Church is a mixed bag, and sometimes I wonder if it’s really “better” than any alternative. There’s a difference between “not doing anything against” the Church, and facilitating the same cycle that caused me so much hurt.
thanks for helping to clarify these ideas, dande. My thoughts are not to be taken as universal advice for everyone and all circumstances. Somestimes the pain or situations are too complex to “embrace the inner Omni” approach.
I like Nibbler’s comments, that we should move towards what helps us find peace, and for some that is not going to be staying in the church or trying to participate.
But the purpose of the forum is to try to support in finding ways we can make it work, for those who can try that. The other thread was about priesthood, and the idea of Omni doing a small part is just one possible way some may find they can make it work.
It is not for everyone. And that is ok too.
By the way, in my mind, I’m not thinking that Omni is a real person, but a figure we use as an allegory to project our thoughts and meanings on to things that help develop hopeful lessons in our current lives. We are all projecting our experience on to these scriptural stories. Like Eckhart Tolle says…none of this is real.
dande48 wrote:
Heber13 wrote:
Let’s be ok with some things at church being good enough for just showing up, or just passing it on. Those things are better than not doing those mustard seed steps. Especially if it is meaningful to the collective faith of the family, even if not to the individual faith of the father.
Personally, I’m not sure I’m ok with it. The Church is a mixed bag, and sometimes I wonder if it’s really “better” than any alternative. There’s a difference between “not doing anything against” the Church, and facilitating the same cycle that caused me so much hurt.
Well I haven’t found a valid non-Christian substitute and of the other churches I know, many suffer from an aging demographic and/or disappear quickly. I was in one church which came and went within three years.
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