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Brown wrote:
I think it is short-sighted to assume that death is always a bad thing.
I agree. Death isn’t bad or good. But delusion does run counter to happiness and peace. There was nothing in those Brass Plates that couldn’t be revealed to any Tom, Dick, or Harry in a more contemporary and vibrant way at any moment. Sure, the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching are wonderful spiritual delights. But so are Conversations With God and A New Earth.
Brown wrote:I am glad it worked out for you that way, but it could have just as easily resulted in disciplinary actions from the church.
Yes, it could have. And I was only able to be honest after I had totally let go of my “need” to have a particular outcome.
To be stark, it comes down to the words of the Tao Te Ching: “The Master knows he is going to die, and he has nothing left to hold on to.” Also, “The Master doesn’t seek fulfillment. Not seeking, not expecting, she is present, and can welcome all things.”
Enoch, I am enjoying this discussion. I’m with you for 99% of cases, and the last 1% is too fuzzy to make sense of. What it comes down to for me is the motive — is it selfish (not wanting my own sins exposed) or self-less (“sheltering” someone from a real danger OR something they don’t have the capacity or desire to deal with)? I can imagine many “guilty” people trying to use the second reason when it is really the first.
Your second example regarding a spouse not able to deal with expressions of doubt strikes home with me. That was the exact situation that turned me from the “typical” NOM pathway out of the church to one of finding my own value and new meaning in the church. In my case I don’t feel that I have ever lied to my wife. She asked me one day (or told me) to find a way to be happy in church or “we” probably wouldn’t last. Today I am honestly as comfortable in church as I have ever been. Obviously that doesn’t mean that I agree with everything I hear. Honestly, I am probably more comfortable now because now I know how to deal with the things that don’t sit well with me.
Anyway, maybe that is why I don’t see a need to “lie” in these situations. From my perspective the truth can in most times be shaped in a way that is not horribly offensive.
I am also highly curious about what your wife thinks of your heretical views.
Orson, I think you and I see things quite similarly on this. As I said, I intentionally pushed these principles to their extremes to explore the options and ramifications. I agree completely that motive is oh so important on this–the motivation really needs to be love and not the desire to escape consequence.
I am so glad things are well with you and your wife. My wife is very understanding and supportive of my views. At first she was weirded out and a bit concerned when I would call myself agnostic, but participating in the Mormon Stories community has made a huge difference. She is able to see how much I care for the Church and want to help its members, and understands my views about the limitations of knowledge and practical benefits of religion. I was deeply touched when she read “The Blessings of an Unknown God” and said it was “beautiful”. She is less of a questioner than I am, but is awakening to the issues in the Church and is really flowering as a feminist. I feel very blessed to be married to her.
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