- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Roy wrote:
I think that JS and later BY had incredible Chutzpah. JS had Chutzpah to speak as the voice of God and BY had Chutzpah to consolidate the fragmented portions of the church around his leadership with ruthless efficiency.
I think it is more impressive that JS had the tenacity to lead a gender- stereotype non-conforming bent at the time and he made it work as much as he did. He was a day laborer turned preacher who took his followers from NY to Pennsylvania to Ohio to Illinois with side quests into other states.
Roy wrote:
I sometimes watch true crime shows and admire the Chutzpah of the fraudsters (think Leonardo DiCaprio’s character from “Catch Me If You Can”). “If only they had quite while they were ahead or kept the fraud smallish and more manageable they could have kept it up perpetually,” I think to myself. But then the same character trait of Chutzpah that enabled them to step into the role they are pretending is also the same character trait that doesn’t allow them to stop.
I might be more cynical these days, but it seems to me that men are at their most “Chutzpah” when they embrace polygamy. When they legalize the emotional or physical infidelity they want to perpetuate rather then remain faithful to their original spouse or be honest that they are ready to move on. The power to choose which wives to take on without thinking through what will happen to the wives, or the men connected to those women (the men who want to date and marry those now-taken women for example) – that is impressive.
It’s probably what got the US government after JS, is in part what got the US government after BY, and is part of the difficulties that Utah had entering statehood because polygamy wasn’t quite abolished.
nibbler wrote:
To echo others, for now we see through a glass, darkly.That goes for everyone that’s written a verse, copied a verse, translated a verse, interpreted a verse. Everything that we call scripture is processed through an imperfect filter. Both when creating scripture and when consuming scripture.
I also wanted to revisit the idea that we don’t read scripture, scripture reads us. There are enough contradictions, nuance, and wiggle room found in scripture such that we can use it to justify just about any position. What I mean when I say that scripture reads us is that the positions we choose to justify through use of the scripture reveal our nature more than it reveals the scripture’s nature.
More like 3-5 imperfect filters. From OT to the Hebrew culture to the Greek and Roman cultures – to the Catholic and Christian cultures – to the Protestant Reformation (and counter reformation cultures) to Joseph Smith’s restoration culture to our modern culture. The NT still starts with a Hebrew lens and is a series of snapshots of the transition from the Hebrew culture to the Christian culture.
I like the mental image of a hefty, authoritative book peering at a representation of me under a magnifying glass:)
Quote:I might be more cynical these days, but it seems to me that men are at their most “Chutzpah” when they embrace polygamy. When they legalize the emotional or physical infidelity they want to perpetuate rather then remain faithful to their original spouse or be honest that they are ready to move on. The power to choose which wives to take on without thinking through what will happen to the wives, or the men connected to those women (the men who want to date and marry those now-taken women for example) – that is impressive.
Yes indeed, the practice of polygamy represents the ultimate “Chutzpah” of men, to the disadvantage of women of course, but also to the disadvantage of many men. It is a system in which a few alpha males hog all the women, to the disadvantage of beta males as well as the women. In some of the polygamist colonies, when “surplus” males reach a certain age (18 or so), they are sent away from the community to fend for themselves, having little practical education. All so that the few remaining males can have more mates. Polygamy benefits no one but the alphas. I see it–along with the priesthood ban–as among the most egregious skeletons in the church closet.Polygamy at the Temple Marriage/Sealing Ordinance level is still around. A living woman has to have each sealing “cancelled” before she can participate in another temple marriage/sealing ordinance. A living man only has a previous sealing “cleared” if the previous spouse divorced him (but if she dies before he does and he “remarries” at the temple marriage/sealing level – that sealing remains in force and is not “cleared”).
Quote:A sealing clearance is needed only if a man is divorced from the woman who was most recently sealed to him. For example, if a man received a sealing clearance to be sealed to a second wife after a divorce, and then his second wife dies, he would not need another sealing clearance to be sealed again.
https://bhroberts.org/records/7Xrrkc-qsLLgc/church_handbook_explains_sealing_policies_of_the_church ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://bhroberts.org/records/7Xrrkc-qsLLgc/church_handbook_explains_sealing_policies_of_the_church I believe that the best answer is to get out of the “temple marriage business” entirely – and have all the temple ordinances that seal men, women, and children together not be ordinances for living individuals, only for the dead. I know that pigs will fly to the moon before this happens because humans like invoking cosmic powers to make some things certain.
That being said, our current system potentially rewards old (but living) men with multiple wives and does not reward old (but living) women with multiple husbands. We like the idea of “grandpa” loving and being loved by all the “grannies” but hate the idea of “grandma” loving and being loved by all the “gramps”.
My concise response: I accept as scripture anything that I believe brings me closer to God and helps me be more like what I want God to be (to make me not only godly but also God-like). Anything else, no matter the source in which it exists, I do not see as scripture.
That isn’t entirely uniquely Mormon, except in its totality (actually becoming like God).
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.