On Stages of Faith/Grief and Anger

[Anonymous]

I’ve been reading through the very long Fowler thread, and there are some fantastic insights there! I wanted to ask specifically how those of you who are in Stage 4 of faith and/or the Anger stage of grieving how you handle/process feelings of anger over your faith changes? I believe that anger is a necessary and important emotion, but I am having trouble expressing it/dealing with it appropriately. Somehow snapping isn’t working.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately I am a guy, so I am lousy at talking about my “feelings”, but I can tell you for me they were fairly intense.

I for sure can’t say I am “in” stage 5, but I certainly feel I have quite a bit more peace and less of a feeling of intense urgency that I did a year or 18 months ago.

I think what I did was keep it all inside and double down on studying, including lots of various podcast – especially mormondiscussionpodcast, but even others not so pro-mormon. I came very close to throwing in the towel early on, but quickly came to realize just how disruptive this would be – and I also still could not explain my most profound spiritual experience I had several decades ago.

But I certainly was angry at how I felt I had been lied to. It was hard to keep under wraps as it really ate me up inside.

So I think to try and exactly answer your question, I kept busy as hell (work, home, study, church). Not sure if that helps.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s quite possible to be stage 4 on some topics (*polygamy*cough*cough*) and Stage 5 on others. One good bit of advice that I often think about is what Viktor Frankl said in Man’s Search for Meaning. He advised patients to imagine their 80 year old self giving them advice. What would your 80 year old self think about these things?

It’s also important to remember that Stage 4 bears a lot of resemblance to growing up and the angst and trauma that comes with it. When you think about a teen separating from parents, part of that process is beginning to see the parents’ flaws, feeling as though they aren’t all they are cracked up to be, and yet feeling a rush of self-confidence in one’s own new found understanding and abilities. As we get older, we start to realize that while our parents were flawed, they did the best they could. Maybe that was good enough, and maybe it wasn’t, but eventually we figure out what we want to do about that. I think that progression, that maturation, is parallel, not because people in faith crisis are childish, but because whenever we go from unquestioned obedience and acceptance to taking responsibility for thinking for ourselves, that process is the same. Were we lied to? Maybe. Did we believe or assume things we ought not? Maybe. But eventually it’s not going to work to just do what you are told.

[Anonymous]

I am beyond the anger stage as well, but it certainly was intense for me. In my case it was also misdirected, I was angry at God but when I (finally) figured out it wasn’t God I should be angry with I turned the anger to the church. I soon realized it wasn’t the church I should be angry with, either. I was then left to be angry with the false (in my view) teachings of members of the church and also recognized that in their view the teachings were not necessarily false. With no one and no thing to be angry with, it eventually dissipated. That’s not to say I don’t have occasional twinges of anger – I still do with the proper trigger. I don’t think my case is by any means applicable to everyone (or anyone else). Like LH, I am a stage 5 (acceptance) in the Kubler-Ross model (I did not go through a bargaining stage). In Fowler’s, I’m somewhere in the 5-6 range. I don’t know that this is helpful – but as far as I can tell, we just need to work through the stages at our own pace and in our own way.

[Anonymous]

One more thing that a life coach of mine said once. He said you should act as though you are 100% responsible for everything that happens. He pointed out that it’s not true, but it’s the only approach that empowers you.

[Anonymous]

One of the most frustrating things about my anger is that it isn’t about one thing or directed to one source. I feel like I’m angry about everything. I’m angry about the history things, but I’m more angry about the stuff that happens now. I feel my blood start to boil when any number of subjects comes up, and I have to keep fighting this urge not to start screaming and throwing things. Not really, but sometimes. I’m starting to believe that God is much more hands-off than we currently teach because otherwise, I’d have to be angry at Him, too. And I’m angry that I can’t go back to just chalking stuff up to another thing we’ll understand in the eternities. After a while, there are just too many things on that board.

I’m so jealous of that peace some of you have found. I know that I just need to be patient, but patience makes me angry.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

One more thing that a life coach of mine said once. He said you should act as though you are 100% responsible for everything that happens. He pointed out that it’s not true, but it’s the only approach that empowers you.

Can you explain this a little bit? He doesn’t mean act as though you are responsible for EVERYTHING? I could see that getting overwhelming really fast. As in, my throat tightens just thinking about it. He just means everything in your life… or your choices…?

[Anonymous]

No, he was actually talking about everything. Things like the weather, other people’s reactions, etc. There’s always SOMETHING in our control, like our attitude. Again, he said it’s not because it’s true, it’s just that it’s an empowering idea – or maybe better said, it’s the only way of looking at things that doesn’t put you in the role of victim of circumstance. It’s similar to two other concepts:

1) eliminating the Karpman Drama Triangle. People get caught up in an endless loop of assigning people (including themselves) to three roles. This way of thinking creates drama and never stops. The roles are victim, persecutor and rescuer. But it’s an endless game with no winners. Getting out of that game is the key to future success and being able to get past things.

2) the idea of the window and the mirror (from the book Good to Great). What differentiates successful, well balanced people from their less effective counterparts is what they do when things go wrong or go right. The successful ones look in the mirror when they go wrong and out the window when they go right. The less successful ones do the opposite.

[Anonymous]

I found good ideas as I searched deeper waters for meaning in life. It does take some time for the anger phase to pass – the fact that you are aware of it is a positive sign. I found forgiveness an interesting and meaningful topic. I remember reading something about how Fred Goldman’s life has been essentially eaten up by his anger toward OJ, and how those who can let go and move on are much happier. I feel like I have connected with the divine in a deeper way as I learned to forgive – as if I have experienced a divine attribute to some degree.

I remember getting a lot out of Fowler’s book, although details are fuzzy today.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s OK to go through a phase of needing to just scream and admit you’re pissed off. Feeling that strong about something is what moves you to change.

I think stage 4 can be months for some people, years for others.

But, I think you either go to stage 3 and join a different stage 3 setting and try again (could be anti-mormonism), or you move to stage 5 and accept things as they are.

I think when you are pissed off and really dislike some things about your religion…but are ready to re-engage in life and organizations and social groups again…that is when you’re ready for Stage 5. It is conjunctive. You define your faith. You own your religion. You are comfortable sitting in the same room with a person who reads Noah’s Ark story literally and value their opinions equally to the atheist. Even while neither of them understand how you see things. You are not only comfortable talking to them, you relish it and learn from them and love them.

It is not tolerating others. It is valuing differences.

It is not bland and never being upset. It is being upset when you should be upset, and peaceful when you should be peaceful.

I think similar to the the stages of grief..you don’t find others are the source of anger or broken or unmet expectations that affect your inner peace. You find acceptance for things. And are ready to re-engage with others again, however you choose that to be.

In my opinion…you progress quicker through stage 4 when you stop telling yourself you can’t be in stage 4. Let yourself be a stage 4er, and be pissed, and write in a journal what pisses you off, what you have studied about it, and what you believe/disbelieve. Then you can start reflecting on why things bother you.

I’m sorry you’re angry.

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

I believe that anger is a necessary and important emotion, but I am having trouble expressing it/dealing with it appropriately.

But you are doing good in being aware you are angry, and being angry is necessary and appropriate, and that you are having trouble expressing it.

Why are you having trouble expressing it? What are you expecting others to do when you express it?

Also…instead of being stuck analyzing why you are where you are, do you know yet what you want? What is your vision of where you want to go? What are you hoping for? What do you need from this religion?

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

I am beyond the anger stage as well, but it certainly was intense for me. In my case it was also misdirected, I was angry at God but when I (finally) figured out it wasn’t God I should be angry with I turned the anger to the church. I soon realized it wasn’t the church I should be angry with, either. I was then left to be angry with the false (in my view) teachings of members of the church and also recognized that in their view the teachings were not necessarily false. With no one and no thing to be angry with, it eventually dissipated.

I went from God, to the church, to the members and eventually landed on myself. I’m still pretty angry with myself for being so naive, oblivious, and uninformed. Why did I never delve? I ignored some gut instincts, but why exactly? Or, why for so long? (I’m old. 🙂 )

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

One of the most frustrating things about my anger is that it isn’t about one thing or directed to one source. I feel like I’m angry about everything. I’m angry about the history things, but I’m more angry about the stuff that happens now. I feel my blood start to boil when any number of subjects comes up, and I have to keep fighting this urge not to start screaming and throwing things. Not really, but sometimes. I’m starting to believe that God is much more hands-off than we currently teach because otherwise, I’d have to be angry at Him, too. And I’m angry that I can’t go back to just chalking stuff up to another thing we’ll understand in the eternities. After a while, there are just too many things on that board.

Yep. Had that phase. You describe it to a tee. And I have screamed. I remember screaming at the TV when I listened to general conference and Elder Ballard said, “We will not, we cannot lead you astray”. I screamed, “HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHEN THERE IS AMPLE PROOF THAT THE Q12 HAVE DONE SO?” It felt to me like he had a brush with white paint and was adding another coat of whitewash. I was glad I was the only one home. But it was good to have a good scream. So find a way to scream a bit if it help. That is best not to be at church though.

[Anonymous]

NonTraditionalMom wrote:

I feel my blood start to boil when any number of subjects comes up, and I have to keep fighting this urge not to start screaming and throwing things. Not really, but sometimes. I’m starting to believe that God is much more hands-off than we currently teach because otherwise, I’d have to be angry at Him, too. And I’m angry that I can’t go back to just chalking stuff up to another thing we’ll understand in the eternities. After a while, there are just too many things on that board.

I do get it. In the interest of full disclosure, at my angriest point I was not attending church. I’m not suggesting anyone stop attending, I’m just pointing out that my circumstances were a bit different. Nevertheless, I think what you’re saying here is what I referenced earlier when I mentioned that the anger does sometimes well up when triggered. Lots of things that people say can trigger that response. Yes, it’s hard to cope with sometimes. My own coping mechanisms include distracting myself (usually electronically) and viewing what the individuals are saying as their personal opinions or points of view which I don’t have to agree with – but don’t have to argue with, either. I find I often view others in the church like I view others outside the church – they have different beliefs than I do. Another way I have coped is something that you’re discovering – I also view God as much more hands off than is generally taught and believed by most members. I often say I have a Deist view, which is not totally accurate but is close. Basically I believe God interacts less with us than is generally believed. Coming to that understanding for myself did help alleviate the anger at God, and that’s what shifted it to the church and members. And, as you and Ann point out, I was/am angry at myself too (mostly for being so easily duped). And yes, I have screamed.

[Anonymous]

I might describe my experience as being similar to DJ’s and Ann’s. I didn’t want the anger, I wanted desperately to avoid the path of being anti anything, but the anger came. Some of that anger was directed at god, some at church leaders, a lot at myself, and I eventually landed on being angry at “the situation.”

LookingHard wrote:

I remember screaming at the TV when I listened to general conference and Elder Ballard said, “We will not, we cannot lead you astray”. I screamed, “HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHEN THERE IS AMPLE PROOF THAT THE Q12 HAVE DONE SO?” It felt to me like he had a brush with white paint and was adding another coat of whitewash. I was glad I was the only one home. But it was good to have a good scream. So find a way to scream a bit if it help. That is best not to be at church though.

I thought I was fairly even keeled when it came to anger management as it relates to the church but then Neil L. Andersen gave his talk on JS a few conferences back. The vague references to half-truths, Judases, etc. must have been my trigger (we all have buttons). I almost instinctively erupted in a torrent of swears… and I didn’t have the fortune of being in the house alone at the time. Everyone else was like 😯 – I left the room, missing the last portion of the talk. A real Jesus flipping tables moment for me except there were no tables around. 😳 I was angry because in my mind I saw the cycle repeating itself all over again for the up and coming generation.

Dealing with anger. Like I said earlier, my anger spent a while circling “the situation” wagon. I’m not even talking about church anymore, just life in general and life in general does include church. For this type of anger I’ve found it useful to:

1) Listen to other people’s stories. When you listen to other people’s stories you come to realize that your story isn’t all that bad… even if it really is all that bad. It just kind of works out that way. Maybe listening helps us escape our own problems, even if just for a moment.

2) Tell people your story. I’ve found that eventually I got sick of telling people my story and eventually some of the anger I was holding on to started to feel like more of a burden than the thing that I had supposed was the root of the anger. Turn the anger back on itself and let the anger consume itself rather than consume you.

A suggestion that I’ve seen on this site is to write down everything that makes you angry, sit on the letter for a while, burn the letter, repeat until the anger collapses under its own weight, like a star undergoing stellar evolution. The going theory is that we get sick of being angry because, let’s face it, all the anger doesn’t change the reality of our situation. Like the technique for getting a kid to stop smoking, make them smoke a whole carton of cigarettes until they get :sick: :sick: at the mere thought of cigarettes. It doesn’t have to be a letter, it can be a support group or friends, but letters don’t tend to get tired of listening.

I think that’s why the anger phase can last so long. It may take a while for us to get tired of something that is a part of ourselves.

On Fowler. Sometimes I find myself wondering what stage I’m on with respect to my faith in Fowler’s stages of faith. Does that make sense? Am I a stage 3 in my belief in Fowler’s stages? Do I completely buy in? Am I in stage 4 in my belief in Fowler because I’ve begun to question the stages of faith? :crazy: Don’t spend too much time worrying about which stage you’re in. Live life, not labels.

With respect to the church as an institution (or even down to an individual member) it’s hard for me to retain anger… over extended periods of time at least. If not for the church I might not have ever reached the point where I found a spring of water welling up to eternal life within me, hopefully you know what I mean by that. Maybe another way of putting it, my parents weren’t perfect, they did the best they could, eventually I became my own man, I started to recognize their flaws, but still acknowledged that my parents played a vital role in getting me to a place where I could start to explore my own independence. Now I’m doing the same with my children, protecting them, blessing them, failing them, giving them experiences. It’s harder to be angry when I view the past as something to build upon. Years were not wasted in my youth, there were only experiences, and all the experiences were consecrated for my gain.

A guy named Zack De La Rocha once said “anger is a gift.” To an extent I can get behind that.

[Anonymous]

I am no longer angry. Although at times, members do things that provoke the angry feelings. I was not only angry, but bitter and unforgiving for some time.

I have found that weaving my own path in Mormonism has stopped me from being angry. If I can draw an analogy — my relationship with the church has been a bit like a relationship with a cheating girlfriend. I trusted her, only to find she claimed to be things I found she wasn’t. And I spent my inheritance investing in our relationship. I felt very angry when I found out who she was, and then labelled me as somehow inferior when I responded to the truth. Plus the way she broke up with me was callous….as was her pattern of taking my well-meaning heart for granted.

The antidote for me is a three-ingredient recipe:

1. Expressing the anger in my journal and online. Mostly online in anonymous discussion forums. Eventually fatigue set in and I got tired of telling my story,

2. Finding a new girlfriend in community service.

3. Defining boundaries in my relationship with the church. And my new girlfriend, for that matter, who I still love.

Give yourself time and acknowledge the anger. Find new pasture, and new paradigms that define your relationship with the church.

I might add a fourth one…I have managed to stay in the church, without necessarily obeying all its policies. …I attend a Ward that is not my own, and so does my daughter. I feel comfortable talking to active members as if I’m an active member by simply adopting their perspective. I have developed internal PR techniques that show priesthood leaders I am still serving others, but in a different way than they do. And I’m comfy with it.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

you progress quicker through stage 4 when you stop telling yourself you can’t be in stage 4. Let yourself be a stage 4er

“That which we resist, persists.” Carl Jung

I also think practicing “cultural anthropology” can be helpful. I find it interesting to wonder and be curious about why people are the way they are, not in judgment, but to understand humanity. It’s a way of removing yourself and your emotions from the equation and observing.

[Author]

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