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Well, I never thought I would be in this situation. I was one of those Mormons whose “testimony is so strong that nothing will ever make me doubt what I believe”. Born and raised in the church, Ricks College, BYU, Mission and temple marriage… I was never bothered by anti-mormon literature. In my mind, it was simply false statements often completely concocted to lead people away from the truth. Joseph Smith translating with his head in a hat (preposterous!), Joseph Smith changing his interpretation of the first vision (of course not!)…etc. But it turns out, many of the preposterous things that I used to dismiss may be more true than not!
The past two years started as a journey to learn more about God, his love and the need for answers. My husband and I had a stillborn child and it bothered me that members of the church were so confident to give answers like- he was a mighty spirit and didn’t need to be on the earth (this was “revelation” received by my brother-in-law while giving me a priesthood blessing), he was going to be schizophrenic and God didn’t want me to deal with that (Geesh…I loved that one! This was a “revelation” received by mother-in-law at the temple)…
In my mind, I absolutely knew that God loved me and I didn’t need a reason why this happened. Sometimes life and death just happen. Other people seemed so confident in the reasons for what was happening to MY life. It bothered me so much that I began praying and contemplating more on the topic of “one truth”. I mostly wanted to know: -How can it be that these devout members of the ONE true church have received these revelations on my behalf and how can their revelations be so different?…and by the way…Who the heck do they think they are!! I was not a happy camper.
And so, I began looking deeper at what TRUTH really was. Did it exist? and if so, can I trust that it comes to the Mormon church. Now, I know that members are not perfect and all that jazz, but something just seemed to bother me on a gigantic propelling level and I haven’t been able to stop studying and investigating.
So I have studied, and I have studied, and I have studied. I have discovered many things from early church history that rattle me to the core and make me feel both elated and devastated at the same time. Elated, because I feel like God is guiding me to a greater understanding of his world and because it seems perhaps his world is not as rigid and filled with rules as the mormon church claims. But devastated because I am mourning the loss of my identity and what once held my heart and soul. I know that sounds dramatic, but my existence had been so rooted in the “truths of the gospel” that it was everything to me. My bishop asked me recently “If I had my time back, would I do things differently? Would I read the books I have read and studied what I have studied?” My only answer could be, “There was nothing to do differently. I was prayerful the entire way. I remained as objective as I could be. I read materials that I percieved as being truth, not anti. I have only discovered what the past contains and now I need to make sense of it.”
So I have some questions that I am currently seeking, and hoping that you may be instrumental in my discovering of God’s truth:
First, Can the mormon church still contain the fullness of the truth with having had such a rocky start: translating from a hat, changing the First Vision, polygamy angel, Carthage business destroyed, Book of Abraham, etc.
Second, if the above is possible, then how can I separate the early history of the church from today’s church?
Because to be honest, I want the church to be what I once thought it was. I want to feel comfort in the thought of Celestial glory and the after-life. I want to know that within the Temple I can recieve revelation and peace because the temple is God’s house. I want to hold the Book of Mormon in my arms with the same level of respect and awe that it once held. Currently I cannot even open the book.
Hmmm… and so the journey continues. Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts.
Some will nuance things they have learned about the church to make it fit in their current world view. They will parse scripture and agonize over its meaning. Many still find some meaning in the doctrine and pick those parts they like and make it work at least in the short term. As for me I can not reconcile things. It seems rather obvious it is all fiction. Are their some truths interspersed in the gospel according to Joseph? Sure there are but no more so than any other religion. I would not fear moving forward. There is much more knowledge and wonderment in the world than is contained in the LDS church.
Welcome FiguringItOut, I first came here almost three years ago in a very similar situation. My wife and I also had a stillborn child and everything changed for me after that. My story is found here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1937 I have tried to update it every year or so with where I am today and links to articles and things that I have found helpful over time. I have said that I might have considered writing a book but that the appeal would be too narrow. The title would be something like, “So you’ve had a stillbirth/miscarriage and are now doubting the LDS church…” Not exactly a best seller. I hope my story is helpful to you.
Not too long after Emory died, I started reading everything I could get my hands on about stillbirths especially from an LDS perspective. I still have quite the library and could give recommendations if that is your thing. I wanted clarity, I wanted certainty. I compiled quotes that fit my narrative and would leave out quotes that didn’t fit (though I was frustrated that there was such a diversity of opinion even among GA’s on the subject). I didn’t know it yet but my foundation was seriously cracked and the structure of my assumptive world would soon reach a critical failure. There is much that I could say but for the sake of brevity I will allow you to read my intro and ask any questions of points that may interest you.
Now on to your question:
FiguringItOut wrote:Can the Mormon church still contain the fullness of the truth with having had such a rocky start: translating from a hat, changing the First Vision, polygamy angel, Carthage business destroyed, Book of Abraham, etc.
I think that you hit upon this yourself when you said “perhaps his world is not as rigid and filled with rules as the Mormon church claims.” The Mormon worldview is surprisingly good at encompassing the answers to the ultimate questions. Because these answers are so rigid and formulaic, it causes us to expect a certain amount of consistency. There are things in the world that defy the formula and need to either be explained away or ignored so that they don’t get in the way. In the early days of the church there were many things that took place that no longer make sense according to our clearly delineated and ordered Mormon universe.
For me, to define the church to contain the fullness of the truth would require one of two things:
1) That “fullness of truth” means that God is guiding the LDS church in an exclusive way that is also mysterious and messy. This translates into a lot of false starts and misunderstandings by the messengers on the ground. The LDS Church could still be the one “true”/divinely led church but change towards a more godly church (one that is more in line with celestial laws) could take generations and even centuries to distill and refine.
2) Or that God is inspiring individuals in this church to do good things, much like he inspires individuals in all places to do good things and the details of how they go about that good is left to their own best devices. In this scenario “fullness of truth” is no more truth than God gives to all flesh through the light of Christ etc. We are still special, but in the same way that everyone else is special.
FiguringItOut wrote:My husband and I had a stillborn child and it bothered me that members of the church were so confident to give answers like- he was a mighty spirit and didn’t need to be on the earth (this was “revelation” received by my brother-in-law while giving me a priesthood blessing), he was going to be schizophrenic and God didn’t want me to deal with that (Geesh…I loved that one! This was a “revelation” received by mother-in-law at the temple)…
I’ve been there too. DW’s family seemed to think that our testimonies of the gospel should be strong enough to overpower our mourning. “It’s not like you’ll never see her again.” People say all sorts of stupid things, especially when they themselves are not particularly comfortable with the subject or with raw emotions in general. I believe that most of them are genuinely trying to provide comfort (sometimes if only to not have to deal with your obvious pain anymore).I also believe that these “revelations” might very well feel like legitimate divine revelations to the individuals who feel them. If your child’s stillbirth is something that doesn’t quite make sense to them, I imagine that having this answer that fits with their understanding of the world is quite comforting. “It is somehow part of The Plan, just stick to The Plan.”
This site is a safe place to for “FiguringItOut.”
Welcome.
Welcome. I don’t want to just repeat what I wrote on another intro post, so I will frame it this way:
I see the main purpose of life as discovering what you believe personally and then finding out how to make it work within the faith community of your choosing – and that last work is much more about attitude than about exact doctrinal belief.
I also find it interesting that Joseph said “Mormonism” encompasses all truth, not that the LDS Church does so at any given time.
Thanks for sharing your story. I’ve not had something as devastating as a still-birth. I’m sorry that you and Roy have had stupid people (or maybe well-meaning people) say stupid things. When my wife miscarried our first child I hated the ‘things happen for a reason’ responses. Sometimes crap happens and it’s simply crap. Not some lesson from on high, not some trial, punishment, temptation or blessing. Just crap.
Like you both, it bothered me that there were no answers, only personal speculation. It even seems that a lot of the things that are presented as answers are actually personal speculation too. I think that might have been part of the beginning of the end of my wife’s testimony. She’s no longer active.
To answer your questions. Yes, some people know all that stuff and still strongly believe it. There are people like Jeff Lindsay who know most of the ‘sticky’ stuff but still have a full testimony of the truth. Jeff’s blog is mormanity.blogspot.com. He’s not a BYU scholar or FARMS/FAIR writer, but has written a lot on the pros and cons.
Having said that, I don’t know how he does it, I have had to adjust my faith after my process of ‘discovery.’
I no longer depend on the church containing all the truth and the only true way. I consider it to be an effective vehicle on the path of the gospel of the Lamb. But I also see other people using different but effective vehicles on the same path. They might not call it a path to the Lamb either.
That means that I’ve realised I don’t know what the real origins of the BoM or endowment are. But I accept that when I read/participate in those that it makes me feel closer to my family and to God as I understand him.
Sorry for you loss, that is the ultimate sorrow. I believe that somehow this sorrow….mine was losing both of my parents within months of the other… may have snapped both of us out of that safe place of knowing the church is true. Several years ago I remember hearing about someone leaving the church to attend another faith and I couldn’t wrap my mind around someone not believing in the church. It didn’t phase me that they quit believing because it may not be true. I thought of every reason but that one. I, like you, need a reason/truth to believe again, to be in that safe, happy spot again. My dilemma has been Joseph Smith’s polygamy. That having been the eye opening for me. All I know is after my parent’s death I was reading everything under the sun about NDE’s. Did God answer me by giving me this faith crisis? I wonder. Did He need me to see the world through different lenses? Maybe the safe, happy spot isn’t where God wants people like ourselves to be. Maybe the middle way of thinking isn’t terrible and possibly opens our world somewhat. Just this morning I thought how I wish someone could show me that what Joseph did was the right thing. Then I could go back full heartily into the church. But then I’m back again feeling hopeless. And moments before I read your post I was thinking I’d like to move somewhere that doesn’t have many mormons (I live in Mormonville). Then I thought ok, I’m in the beginning phase of anti mormon thinking. I see now how the anti mormon came to be. I don’t blame them now that I am in their shoes. I fear I may become that mormon. Though before I did I’d jump off a cliff, suicide crosses my mind constantly. That’s where the anti begins I’ll bet. Feeling that by not believing the church they are nothing. Sorry for my rant, just know that you’re not alone. I wish I were more help.
Thank you all very much for your welcome and words or wisdom. I never imagined that such a site as this would exist or that there would be a need for such a site. Thank you for being true to what you believe. I am increasingly excited about the possibility of navigating through what I believe and how I can make sense of everything the past two years have brought. Of one thing I feel certain: God is aware of each of us and knows exactly what we need to come closer to him. For me right now, that is not within the walls of a mormon church, however it is still within the theology of mormonism. Does that make sense? Roy, Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like our paths have been quite similar. I completely agree, experiencing such a loss is a total game changer! Life has not been the same, and in many many ways, it is far better.
I agree with your statement about others needing their “revelations” more than me. I have pondered on the same thought- perhaps those revelations were from God as a possible explanation to the person receiving it. For example, I referred to my mother-in-law receiving a revelation that my son was going to be schizophrenic. This is offensive on so many levels, especially considering that my own father is schizophrenic. Is it possible that my son was going to be schizophrenic?- Absolutely. But that certainly doesn’t mean he should be disregarded and not given the opportunity to live in this world.
But if I look from my mother-in-law’s perspective, I wonder if she may have blamed herself for the loss of my son. Her side of the family is full of sad baby stories from miscarriage to SIDS and still-birth. Perhaps God was giving her a possibility that could give her mind some peace. I don’t know- maybe far fetched…but I can see personal revelation being an indication of possible realities and NOT only an indication of complete truth.
Tacenda, I think you are right. Our loss has definitely snapped us out of that safe place of knowing the church is true. I can imagine how hard that must be, living in a heavily populated mormon area. I’m not sure how I would have handled this faith crisis if it happened while I was at Ricks or BYU.
All of my immediate friends and family are members and I am hesitant to tell them how I feel about the church. Mostly, I don’t want to be the cause of snapping someone else out of that safe place. I know most members will simply believe I am deceived by anti-mormon literature. They will disregard my faith crisis by simply stating that I didn’t have a testimony to begin with. I am very afraid that the response of friends and family will lead me closer to being anti.
God bless this site is all I have to say!!!
FiguringItOut wrote:Roy, Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds like our paths have been quite similar. I completely agree, experiencing such a loss is a total game changer! Life has not been the same, and in many many ways, it is far better.
There is a poem that meant a lot to DW and I: “Our joys will be greater, our love will be deeper, our life will be fuller because we shared your moment” – Author Unknown. For me, coming to a realization of living life without a safety net has meant a more present centered focus. I can’t spend my children’s childhood harping on them about getting into the right university (or heavenly kingdom) when they might never live that long. I must balance the needs of the present “now” with the needs of the possible future.FiguringItOut wrote:Perhaps God was giving her a possibility that could give her mind some peace. I don’t know- maybe far fetched…but I can see personal revelation being an indication of possible realities and NOT only an indication of complete truth.
One of my more irritating new talents is the ability to look at things from multiple angles and possibilities. Sometimes people just want certainty.Many religious/grief books that I have read have a premise and then they go about trying to prove that premise. They use personal revelation, statistics, scientific research, personal experience, quotes from GA’s or respected persons, and scripture to build a case for their theory. Some theories are good – some theories are less good. Generally I can see why the theory works for the individual putting it forth, but I can also see why this wouldn’t work for everyone.
One example of this is that this mortal probation might be individually personalized for each person. God knows you better than you know yourself. He knows what experiences are likely to cause the optimal growth or yield in you. He gives you a life tailored to provide just such growth experiences. To ask why and compare your experiences to others is to doubt the wisdom of God’s personalized plan for your life. In the book where I found this theory it was clear that this person found great peace in it, it just won’t give peace to everyone.
It is possible that God gives answers that are acceptable/palatable/helpful for where a specific person is in their life at a given time. It is also possible that our subconscious/”god within” steps up to supply us with answers when such are needed to maintain our sanity. So many possibilities…
:crazy: Tacenda, I’m sad you feel so hopeless that you say “suicide crosses my mind constantly.” If that’s true, please get help for depression. I’ve read enough of your posts here and at Mormon Dialogue to know you are in no way an “anti-Mormon.” (And even if you became “anti” at some point, big deal. God loves his children in or out of the church.) I hope you can be kind to yourself. Please talk to someone in person and ask for help. I’ve been there before, and suicide is not the answer. Welcome Figuringitout. I hope this site will be helpful to you.
And thanks everyone for your heartfelt honesty.
Tacenda, if you think of suicide even occasionally, much less often, please get professional help. That’s not something you want to shrug off. Ray and Thankful, I’m calling a doctor tomorrow, I think I’m menopausal. It’s a scary feeling to be that depressed. Thanks for the concern I sooo appreciate it. And sorry to threadjack your post FiguringItOut. I think you have a great outlook and attitude and will handle things better than some of us 
FiguringItOut wrote:Of one thing I feel certain: God is aware of each of us and knows exactly what we need to come closer to him. For me right now, that is not within the walls of a mormon church, however it is still within the theology of mormonism. Does that make sense?
I think I get what you are saying. I can understand the need to take a break especially when the faith crisis is fresh. Unfortunately, that can also be a rather public display of your current feelings. We generally advise people to take things slow, not do anything hastily, and to not over share our doubts.
FiguringItOut wrote:All of my immediate friends and family are members and I am hesitant to tell them how I feel about the church. Mostly, I don’t want to be the cause of snapping someone else out of that safe place. I know most members will simply believe I am deceived by anti-mormon literature. They will disregard my faith crisis by simply stating that I didn’t have a testimony to begin with. I am very afraid that the response of friends and family will lead me closer to being anti.
Exactly! We tend to be very hard on those who we feel “should know better.” My wife shared that I was having doubts with a less active LDS friend that would use the internet to find casual sex partners. Her response: “But he served a mission!” I guess there is a lesson in there, that we compartmentalize our own behavior and cast judgment as hypocrites.
I think that everyone here will encourage you to follow where the spirit is leading – even if that is outside of the LDS church structure. I would only caution that the more drastic, public, and irreversible the act (public and irreversible are somewhat synonymous since you can’t get the “cat” back into the bag) – The more thoughtfully it should be considered to be reasonably sure that it will be right for you and your loved ones.
For me I have been able to feel God in some surprising settings (some Mormon – some not). The LDS church no longer defines my walk with God. It is just a church that I go to.
I hope I am doing this “quote” thing correctly…here goes… Quote:The LDS church no longer defines my walk with God. It is just a church that I go to.
Thank you Roy. I see myself heading in this same direction, but currently in a very cautious manner. What a strange feeling it is to rework a belief system that has been so near and dear to my heart, and while doing it, second guessing myself the entire way. “Am I being deceived” is constantly on my mind. At times I feel such clarity of thought and at other times I feel complete and absolute fear. I hope you don’t mind my sharing an experience I had this week; perhaps mostly to gain clarity from the experience and to solidify what the heck I am learning with all of this!
Some background knowledge: I was raised in the LDS church and have never committed any of the “big” WOW sins; never had a cup of coffee or tea, never any alcohol or smoking. My earliest memory related to the WOW was with my family at my great- grandmother’s house (a non-member). She had spent all day preparing a nice meal for us and just as we began to eat dessert, my mother had a look of absolute horror on her face. She immediately asked us to stop eating the trifle and explained to my great-grandmother that because there was alcohol in the dessert, we could not eat it. My dear Granny Nanny, as we liked to call her, was so embarrassed. And the message I took away from it, which I wish had been different was, gosh- it must be a serious sin to break the WOW otherwise my mother wouldn’t have embarrassed my granny like that! The observance of the WOW became a solid indication that I was right with God and, while I didn’t judge others for breaking the WOW, for me it was NOT going to happen. Breaking it would mean being weak, not having a testimony, and surely God would bannish me. In other words, I was motivated by fear.
This brings me to the past couple of weeks. Since coming to the conclusion that the LDS church is not the
One.True.Only, naturally I have questioned what I believe and what I will follow in the church. I haven’t seen any reason to follow the word of wisdom and have been quite excited about the possibility of “being a normal human being”…thoughts of having a glass of wine with dinner or a cup of coffee in the morning have made me feel giddy with excitement! How silly hey?! 😆 It was a constant on my mind but I just couldn’t do it! After all, what if I am deceived!! Time after time, I would play with the idea of having a “sinful” drink, only to cower away with fear.
Then Wednesday morning, I decided- this is the day! I drove up to the Starbucks window, opened my mouth to order and I thought I might die!! I had an immediate vision of growing a wart on my nose and physically changing form. My heart started to beat and I was paralyzed with fear. I felt like I was a little child about to do the most evil thing in the world.
😥 I drove away without my coffee and completely disgusted with myself…am I really that afraid of God??!…and how did I not see the damage I was doing to myself before!!I feel like this is where God stepped in and taught me an important message.
I wasn’t two minutes down the road and I had a confident and powerful feeling that this irrational fear was holding me back and was NOT God given. I was on auto-pilot and went immediately to the next drive-through, ordered a small coffee and let it sit in my car while I prayed. I asked God to help me move on from this silly fear and I was reassured that what was sitting in my car really was just a drink. It wasn’t a dark drink with a tiny devil sitting inside it. It was a drink! And what I was doing was making a decision, not defining my eternal happiness. Just a freakin decision!!
Well, I finally did it!!
😮 I drank that coffee, and while it may have tasted like feet (seriously, how do people drink this stuff), I didn’t curl up into a ball and wither away. In fact, I can honestly say that I felt peace. The fear of God was removed and instead, I was left with feeling the spirit.How bizarre is that! I am a mormon and I felt the spirit BECAUSE I broke the Word of Wisdom!!
:clap: 😆 But the truly bizarre feeling came next. I went home and WANTED to put my garments back on. I WANTED to go to the temple. I WANTED to read the bible (notice the BofM is still undesirable). But this time, it was because I like that part of my life and I see it’s value. Not because I have no other choice but to be obedient otherwise I will be eternally damned.
I can’t say that I will never have another coffee, and I am quite certain that I will have that glass of wine with dinner one day. But you know what…big hairy deal! It’s not the end of the world. It’s a decision. Granted, I may one day feel the need to repent for that decision. But the atonement is for me too!! God doesn’t need me to act out of fear.
Perhaps sinning and repenting is of far more importance than going through the motions and being “faithful” out of fear. Hallelujah!!!! and in the words of Homer Simpson, “Praise Jeebus!”
FiguringItOut wrote:What a strange feeling it is to rework a belief system that has been so near and dear to my heart, and while doing it, second guessing myself the entire way. “Am I being deceived” is constantly on my mind. At times I feel such clarity of thought and at other times I feel complete and absolute fear.
I believe we all go through this. I know I started a thread on just this topic not long after I joined. All I can say is time has made the difference. I know longer worry about being deceived. I do the best I can with the knowledge and understanding God has given me.
Quote:Well, I finally did it!! I drank that coffee…I didn’t curl up into a ball and wither away. In fact, I can honestly say that I felt peace. The fear of God was removed and instead, I was left with feeling the spirit.
Good for you! I understand the feeling 100%. There is truly a sense of liberation knowing that they choice is fully yours, not something you are compelled to do out of fear. Never have I felt more free than when I know longer feared damnation and hell fire.
😯 While I don’t believe God cares what we drink, I don’t run out and drink coffee for many OTHER considerations, social among them. I’m trying to fit in as an active Mormon and the WoW is pretty big there. That being said I’m enjoying a cup of White Monkey green tea as I type this.
Quote:God doesn’t need me to act out of fear. Perhaps sinning and repenting is of far more importance than going through the motions and being “faithful” out of fear.
Indeed. My perspective has changed drastically. Before I believed that we could repent. But some part of me always understood sin and making mistakes as undesirable. Now I simply accept it as part of life, indeed as necessary in order to learn and grow. And I believe that “God” is merciful enough that (S)He understands me and will judge me according to my intents.[ EVERYONE, this is a long, traditionally apologetic testimony comment. The admins will be discussing it. For those of you who are prone to get extreme heartburn right now over this type of comment, feel free to skip it. Ray] Dear FiguringItOut,
I’m not even sure how I came across your post, but I’ve felt so constrained to reply that I’m certain the Lord has asked me to. So I signed up on this site for the express purpose of answering you.
Where to start? You mentioned, “Because to be honest, I want the church to be what I once thought it was.” First off, you can breathe easily again… the Church is true; it’s so much more true than you currently understand. Next, there are a lot of disturbing historical facts in the Church’s history (or, more appropriately, in the history of the members of the Church). It’s somewhat naive to dismiss them all as false as you preferred to earlier in your life. Many, many members of the Church live this way. In the end, this is ok, I suppose, because where you end up, given that you honestly are searching the truth, will be exactly where they are now, with the testimony that this is our Living God’s work.
It is very important to not flip to the other naive extreme, which is to unquestioningly believe that since you are reading some facts that appear historical, they are true because they sound rational. That is quite likely more naive than dismissing them as false, and here is why: many (not all) critics of the Church are motivated by unrighteous purposes. Some see themselves as “saving the poor naive Mormons” and may have good intentions. Consider first, however, that many do not; in fact, these are often people who have devoted a huge portion of their time to a destructive, not constructive, motivation of tearing down what they do not (or no longer) want to believe. Can we look for “enlightenment” in a destructive motivation? Beware, there are lies out there, a terrible lot of them and to a terrible extent. Believing otherwise is ignorance. The difficultly comes in sorting which are true facts and which are not, nearly impossible, but do not dismiss the motivation of the author, if it can be discovered!
I’ve been were you are in the past, hyperventilating because of reading that Joseph Smith translated with his head in his hat, or seemingly drew in missing parts to the Egyptian papyrus.
What I find very difficult to believe, however. or rather, what I intellectually simply cannot accept, is that he is
nota Prophet. You see, that is what those who drift from the Church on these grounds are saying. But you can’t pick and choose evidence if you want to be fair to yourself. There are many, many things in the Book of Mormon which cannot be so easily dismissed. I suspect I have forgotten more than 10 times the number facts about the Book of Mormon that are convincing that Joseph Smith was a prophet than I can still recall. I’m talking about facts that would have been virtually impossible for a man (any man) to know in 1830 and that, moreover, were indeed understood to the contrary by the scholars of 1830 or later, such that they actually used these points against Joseph Smith, and which only later, sometimes much later, were shown that, somehow or another, he had it right! There are dozens, or hundreds perhaps already identified. “Alma isn’t a Hebrew name, it is a Latin female’s name!” Then, in 1961, a prominent scholar in Israel, Professor Yigael Yadin, discovers an ancient land deed including the name as “Alma the son of Judah,” a Hebrew male’s name. Does that prove Joseph Smith is a prophet? Of course not! But he either knew more than all scholars from 1830 to 1961 or he got lucky. The phrase “land of Jerusalem” is used no where in the Bible or Apocrypha, yet appears in the Book of Mormon many, many times. Jerusalem is a city and wasn’t referred to as a land! This fact was used against Joseph Smith until the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered and the same phrase was found in the Dead Sea scrolls dating to time of the prophet Jeremiah! Does this prove he was a prophet? No, but he either knew more than all scholars from 1830 to the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls or he got lucky.
The Book of Mormon talks about the ancient Americans using cement. Clearly, that’s preposterous. Oh, well, until cement works were discovered well into the 20th century. Does that prove Joseph Smith is a prophet? Of course not! But he either knew more than all scholars from 1830 to the 20th century, or he got lucky.
What about the Valley of Lemuel, through which Nephi states Lehi led his family and where there is a continual flowing river running into the Red Sea? Again, attack that Joseph Smith.. he doesn’t know anything, there are no such continually flowing rivers that empty into the Red Sea! That is, that any scholars knew about, until 1995 when such rivers were discovered (in valleys, no less!). Does that prove Joseph Smith is a prophet? Of course not. But he either knew more than all scholars from 1830 to the 1995, or he got lucky.
How did he know people would later discover both Egyptian and Hebrew writing in the ancient American writings? Scientists who found these were utterly baffled. But you and I know exactly how those languages were known to them, don’t we? Again, he just got lucky?
How did he know horse bones (or very similar to horse) would be discovered? Luck?
How did he even know some things we take for granted, like the fact that ancients would ever conceive of writing records on metal plates? Such others have since been discovered. More Luck?
If you take this course long enough, you reach an intellectual conclusion that you are either fooling yourself or Joseph Smith was far luckier than statistically possible or you accept the only other alternative: he was inspired of the Living God: he is a prophet. You can’t get around it! You can’t leave the Church believing the anti-church literature without answering to these or you are fooling yourself.
How lucky? I’ve studied statistics enough that I tried to work out a rough guess once. Maybe I’ll formalize it more someday, it isn’t anything very special, just a rough idea of the order of magnitude of impossibility we are concerning ourselves with here. It goes something like this: collect a sample of evidences like the 5 listed above and assign an extremely liberal chance that somehow, though no other scholar of his time nor for years to come evidently knew about it, that somehow Joseph Smith did. How does 20% chance sound? That’s pretty darn generous given no expert knew this. But, let’s be more conservative, let’s give this super scholar, Joseph Smith, a 40% chance that he knew each of these facts
that no one else in his lifetime or for years thereafterknew. Still, what is often overlooked in statistics is that to calculate probability as we are here, the events must be independent. NASA scientists overlooked this when they built the Challenger and had they not, it may not have exploded because the o rings they believed to be redundant all failed. (Their chances of failure we not independent.) One could argue that some of the events that Joseph Smith would have gained knowledge of are not independent. For example, he found some obscure source of knowledge of ancient Hebrew and, if so, knowing that Alma could be a male Hebrew name also shed light for him that a city called Nahom (1 Nephi 16:34), where Ishmael was buried, existed in an area consistent with Lehi’s travels. The mathematical complexities here become impossible to model, so let us simplify by fudging, somewhat unscientifically, of necessity, with an irrationally large chance of Joseph Smith’s knowledge. Let’s agree upon a 70% chance that Joseph Smith knew each of these facts. Now, bear in mind, we are not supposing that Joseph Smith got lucky, rather, that is what we are calculating. We are attempting to say either he knew all these factsor he got extraordinarily lucky, to the extent we calculate.70% chance of him knowing each of these, when apparently no one else, including and especially his scholarly criticsknew them is absurdly high, enough so that it should more than compensate for the argument that knowledge of some handful of the facts listed may not be independent. If we list 25 such evidences (a conservative number given that many exist in one single web pages collection here:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml ),we reach the chance that Joseph Smith knew all these facts as: 0.7 raised to the 25th = 0.0001. That’s one 100th of 1 in 100! However, the truth is that 25 is a low estimate (go purchase and read the fairly new book “Voices from the Dust.”), I believe and that if we take the time to really search, we may readily compile 50 or 100. The chances raise exponentially, for 0.7 to the 50th is 0.000000018!
This is the folly of those dismissing Joseph Smith’s divine calling of a prophet on intellectual bases. Ultimately, they have to answer “How did he create the Book of Mormon?” But they don’t… they can’t. Instead, they use their feeble arguments as self justifications for a self-gratifying, godless, faithless lifestyle,
and ignore this blatant, glaring, and unanswered flaw in their reasoning.You can’t tell me “He got lucky, over and over.” That argument works for one or two or a handful of evidences, but I will never be able to abandon reason to the extent of 0.00000001 or less (remember, we were extremely conservative… try the math again with 25%!) No, that is the problem. No matter what fancy you throw against the prophet, the burden of answering against this impossibility lies in your court and ever will. You no longer can suppose Joseph Smith a fraud because today’s Egyptian experts find no trace of the Pearl of Great Price in the accounted for papyrus (by the way, my understanding is that it is undisputed that only a fraction of the papyrus were recovered… we don’t have the rest.), for example, because you haven’t answered those evidences that you cannot throw away! You can’t claim fraud without staring in the face the numerous evidences he could not have known and answering to them. Henry Eyring, who I believe is the same as the world renowned scientist and father to our Apostle, says this:
“An example of what I am talking about is the recent discovery of the papyrus scrolls from which Joseph Smith was presumed to have translated the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Modern scholars, looking at the scrolls, found nothing they considered to be similar to that book. I remarked at the time that such a finding didn’t bother me in the least. God doesn’t need a crib sheet in the form of a papyrus scroll to reveal Abraham’s thoughts and words to Joseph Smith, with any degree of precision He considers necessary for His purposes. If the only function of the scrolls was to awaken the Prophet to the idea of receiving such inspiration, they would have fulfilled their purpose.” (Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist, p. 46 )
The concerns you’ve listed are quite age old, also, you should know. Try as you may, you can’t disprove the truth. Joseph Smith WAS a prophet of God; I do not have the faith in Joseph Smith the man that you need to possess to claim otherwise. I don’t have that faith in him, sorry. The only explanation is a divine one. Read this article.. (you are seeking the truth, right? Or are you seeking self justification, the choice is yours):
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=72&chapid=865 Imagine you are walking though a jungle of trees and happen upon, in the midst of these trees, a dying octopus. How did it get there? What can it mean? You know enough science that you feel absolutely certain that octopi simply do not inhabit jungles, so you conclude you must be in an ocean. But wait a minute! One inexplicable fact (or even a short list of them) is no grounds for dismissing all other evidence! You are surrounded by trees, you aren’t underwater, you are on solid ground 100s of miles away from an ocean. How can you shut your eyes to such? You may never be able to explain the octopus, but I assure you, nonetheless, you are not in an ocean. We don’t know the whole story of the Pearl of Great Price, but I am not unscientific enough to dismiss all that I do know, shutting my eyes to many, many more facts that exist, like it or not, that cannot be overcome if Joseph was not a prophet. It’s scientifically absurd.
Imagine for a moment that Joseph made it all up and explain these, his actions. He somehow convinced 3 men to go along with a fictitious angel Moroni story. Later, all three of these men fell from the Church. Could he afford to excommunicate them, who knew his secret? Of course not! He couldn’t dare. Oh, but he did. Where was the hesitation of his being exposed? All three of them were excommunicated! What a blessing to you and me that this took place. Reason what it means; don’t be blind. These men were committed to do whatever it would take to bring down and discredit the Prophet. Yet, they
could not deny seeing that angel. No, not one of them, ever. To their death. Later, some returned to the truth of the gospel. Wake up and see these evidences for what they mean, I implore you. Read Thomas Marsh’s own words: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/TBMarsh.html So why do we have these scarey, weird things in Church history we don’t know how to account for? I don’t know for sure, but I submit that the answer is in the first principle of the gospel, absolutely essential to why we are here:
Faith. Why is the name Jesus Christ never given in the old testament? Because, don’t the Jews deserve the chance to prove their faith? Why did Moroni take back the plate instead of God directing them to a museum where Joseph’s translation would eventually be confirmed? Faith. It’s not in His plan. Were it so, He wouldn’t have cast the veil of forgetfulness at birth in the first place, would he have? We underestimate the importance of Faith all too often and how vital it is to our probation and salvation. Faith for every level. You’ve passed the basic understanding of the gospel of many LDS members. Isn’t it only fair you have a chance to prove your faith as well with some of these trickier concerns? So Joseph Smith put his face in a hat with stones. So what? He needed a dark place and that seems a logical way to get it. Who are you or am I to dictate to the Almighty God what His means of communication to men is allowed to be, and that it may not include seer stones or a Urim and Thummim? Joseph Smith gave differing versions of the First Vision? So what? So read them all like a true student should and get a good appreciation of what probably happened. You know these were recorded long after the sacred event. Do you suppose he was superhuman somehow and remembered absolutely everything, keeping every fact and recollection in his superhuman mind perfect? Or did he make mistakes and leave some things out in some accounts (possibly intentionallygiven his current audience)? Which is it? Was he the superhuman mastermind so clever that he never once, no, not once, mixed up 1000 years of vast historical accounts and intricate stories with intricate political and social themes and wisdom of spirituals truths that take a life time to comprehend, together with undiscovered chaisms and differing author styles contained in the Book of Mormon or was he a human being that got things mixed up, misquoted and slightly changed from one recounting to the next? You can’t both on the one hand claim he was a superhuman genius that pulled off an unparallelled, yet fraudulent, literary masterpiece and on the other hand try to prove him a fraud by putting on display discrepancies in how he recounts the First Vision. The case only serves to prove the point: that he couldn’t have fabricated the Book of Mormon, surpassing all other literary geniuses such as Shakespeare, etc. who get things mixed up all the time in their works. As for treasure hunting, by Joseph’s own admission: “I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. “
Why is it, incidentally, that we need suppose prophets are perfect, and any sign to the contrary should discredit their divine calling? Do they not have the same right to prove themselves in this mortally as you and I? Do they not have their free agency? You know the gospel; it only makes sense. Is it possible Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or some other latter day prophet tried to cover something up that we wish they would have just made known? Surely it is possible, are they not imperfect men? But do not suppose these were not righteous men called of God even if they had done such. Jonas ran away from God’s commandment. David committed adultery and, essentially, manslaughter. Stake presidents sometimes fall. Bishops sometimes commit adultery. Apostles have fallen, even to Judas’ betrayal of the Messiah! Do not be content to hinge your salvation on the acts of another man. Do not suppose they are not on this earth for the same reasons you and I are, to be tested as well as to lead. But do not suppose it is within our right to decommission he whom God has commissioned.
Now, enough intellectualism, as much as I love it. You will never definitely satisfy yourself with it, ever. Go read Matthew 16:15-17. Are you truly seeking? Find your scriptures and read it. Why does the Savior call Peter blessed? Is not this intellectual (alone) quest for the truth the
exactly and preciselyasking “flesh and blood” to reveal it? Why was Peter blessed? Because his testimony was much more than that. I tell you plainly, the historical and physical evidences leave no room in my mind for the alternative, yet what is more, I know the Church is Christ’s Church in my heart. It was irrevocably burned into my soul in no uncertain terms that the Book of Mormon is God’s word, and though my memory of the dozens of circumstantial evidences supporting it fails me, yet I can never suppose to pretend this testimony wasn’t given to me by something higher than earth over 20 years ago. The Book of Mormon is God’s word. More than this, your very life tells you the gospel the Church contains is true. I believe Jesus Christ when he told the Jews in the temple at the Feast of Tabernacles what he told them in John 7:16-17. He wasn’t lying. And I can no more explain how salt tastes than I can explain how I know this, only that it is obvious unless you’ve shut off the spirit in your life. Yes, you can breathe easily again… the Church is true, there is no doubt.
A word of advice, repeated: be careful whom you trust when considering the voice of critics. One of the most enlightening papers you will ever read from critics of the Church (the honest, not malicious kind of critics, mind you) is here, on their own web page:
[anti-Mormon link deleted by admin]You say you are serious, so take the time to read it. It is written by those who believe it is their duty to educate and save the Mormons, critics of the Church, and yet, I had to do additional research to convince myself it wasn’t written by some LDS hoax maker in disguise because of how convincing their evidence is that we have the truth. By their own admission, they have no one even in the same realm as well known LDS scholars such as Hugh Nibley. They have no answer to these, thus their title and thesis “Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect:
Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?” trying to convince their own scholars that they are losing the battle and that they need to take it more seriously because the Mormon church are no idiots. It’s absolutely fascinating.
Why on earth would you trust these people more than those LDS scholars?I’d be surprized if you’ve heard a single argument that isn’t reasonable and rationally answered by lds scholars at this web site: http://www.ldsfair.org Also, another resource:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/ I’ll try not to be arrogant by calling these critics, so called intellectuals, “fools” and instead allow the Savior’s speak to them. Do you have know small children who believe Joseph Smith and Thomas Monson are prophets? I do. I have some. And those critics and they who have left the Church to justify their lifestyle have have no such testimony. Now read Matthew 11:25 and tell me it doesn’t apply with every word.
If you are under the impression that the apostles and general authorities of the Church aren’t aware of virtually every anti-mormon claim of “disproof,” think again. If you are under the impression these are deceiving men, oh my goodness, you couldn’t be further from the truth, just listen to them speak, general conference, etc. I am well past convinced that the motivation and ethics of these men are true and honorable; these aren’t superficial tears of deceit they shed in conference, absolutely not. I’d be quite surprised if there are any better men in the world. No, these are genuine men; the real deal. “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:15-20 (Note in that passage of scriptures the Lord is warning “Beware of false prophets”. Did you catch the subtle fact that the Lord doesn’t say “Beware of anyone claiming to be a prophet for there shall be none in the future.” No, He even goes on to state “by their fruits ye shall know them.” It is more than mere implication that there
would be true prophets to come.You already know who these are, don’t let the great deceiver convince you other wise. They are here, trust me… trust them, trust the Lord.) I’ve taken hours of my day off work to compile this commentary, I’d ask that in the least you spend the time to investigate what I’ve so painstakingly assembled and, please watch the couple videos below, continuing in faith, knowing that God loves you and you can know the truth. Two of my favorite scriptures are John 7:16-17 and Matthew 16:15-17 (references above) and both of these testify that you are looking in the wrong place if you try to prove this all alone intellectually. Such is a denial of the very first principle of the gospel. You need more than that: it’s fundamental.
Both these videos are directed to you. You mentioned, “I was prayerful the entire way.” When you pray for answers, it is wisdom to not dismiss them when they come.
This you may have heard recently. Hear it again, if so:
In summary, breath easy, do not hyperventilate, for the Church is true. It’s ok to go back to feeling as you used to about it, and you’ll be the stronger for it when you really understand this material and really start to see this blatantly obvious light; that there is no way, absolutely no way, that it could be not true. I don’t have enough faith in men to believe that, it makes no scientific or statistical sense and, more than that, I know it in my heart, I’ve felt the confirmation in my life in a way that I simply can’t dismiss as my emotions. Now, I don’t know you at all, so it can’t be a personal thing if you choose to disregard all this and convince yourself that somehow the Church is fraud, but you should know a few things:
1. The Lord won’t stop you; He has given you your agency and refuses to take it from you.
2. The Lord will answer your prayers if you will allow Him. Don’t expect you will know how or when, so be watchful (is he answering some right now?) and be open to His way of things. C.S. Lewis said “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, ‘All right, then, have it your way'”. You haven’t studied the Book of Mormon enough if you can believe it is fraud. “I cannot even open the book,” is utterly and precisely how the adversary would have it.
3. With or without you, the Church will continue to roll forth as Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream prophesies. (Incidentally, where else will you ever find answers to these prophecies, and Ezekiel’s and Isaiah’s and Malachi’s prophecies, by the way? No other church even dare’s suppose what they mean, let alone fulfill them! Your choices are the living Church or a vast myriad of dead ones.)
4. Though you search the rest of your life, I can promise you, you will never find real fulfillment or true joy anywhere outside His Church. Promise or curse, however you materialize it, but the emptiness you describe as devastation to your soul is precisely what lack of fulfillment this path will gain you, and for
real reason, namely, you are shutting the door on His Light and counsel. 5. I truly hope you won’t leave; somehow I feel a love for you I can’t explain.
One more final thought by C.S. Lewis that has come to mean an awful great deal to me because I can say the same of the gospel (our revealed true gospel) that he says of Christianity: “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” This is a realization of Christ’s promise in John 7:16-17 to me.
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