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Kentbower, I am not comfortable with your post. I have no problem with someone saying what they personally believe including a classic testimony of the LDS church or a faith promoting experience. But this post does not feel in line with the mission of this site. I don’t know if this post technically breaks the rules but the posting guidelines do say: “This is not a place for polemics, debate or heated argument; it also is not a place for classic “apologetics”
I feel that this is a classic apologist posting.
Please know that most of us have looked at these issues in great depth including many of the links and apologetic statements you give. I have had many of my concerns resolved by studying the issues thoroughly from many points of view. Some problems I cannot resolve and I come here to ask questions because I know I will get respectful, honest opinions. The main page of this site has links to FAIR and FARMS and similar apologetic sites.
Lastly, I am most uncomfortable with this statement:
kentbower wrote:
I’m not even sure how I came across your post, but I’ve felt so constrained to reply that I’m certain the Lord has asked me to. So I signed up on this site for the express purpose of answering you.One thing that is clear in LDS doctrine is that you can only have revelation for someone you have stewardship for. I am quite certain you have no stewardship for Figuring It Out.
Figuringitout, I am glad that you are finding peace on your personal journey. It’s amazing how intensely I used to see drinking coffee as a sin, and now I see it as just a drink that I can take or leave as a personal choice. Like you, I don’t feel that God is displeased with the path I am on. Best wishes.
FiguringItOut wrote:What a strange feeling it is to rework a belief system that has been so near and dear to my heart, and while doing it, second guessing myself the entire way.
I agree! And, while doing it, tending to all the people and things that matter most in your life. There’s a little story somewhere about replacing every plank of a boat
while in the water. Tricky. Kent Bower, Please read the rules and guidelines for this stie very carefully before commenting again. We don’t do much editing of comments or moderating here, in comparison to many sites, but your comment violated the spirit of this site and also, in one case, the explicit rule that forbids linking to explicitly anti-Mormon sites. (thus, my deletion of the link) We also are not inclined to allow participants who come here only to witness against a particular post or comment – from either extreme.
This is a community, in the purest sense of the word, and we value diversity, as Pres. Uchtdorf described in his recent General Conference talk. As a community, we do not allow direct, personal attacks on individuals – and we even try to avoid sweeping attacks on groups, although that is a trickier line to enforce. I am going to discuss your comment with the other admins, and we will reach a decision as to how to handle it. I just want to let you know why we are doing so, in case you return to this thread.
Ray
I apologize for not having read the rule against apologetics before posting. It was certainly not done maliciously. Kent, it’s not so much a rule against apologetics as it is a rule against condemnatory or patronizing apologetics that claim, at the core, there is no other legitimate way to view something. We are a group of people who view lots of things differently, so one of our guiding rules is simple respect for ideological / philosophical diversity. Thanks for your follow-up comment. I’m sure none of us thought there was malicious intent.
To kentbower, First of all, I would like to thank you for giving me more to think about. I can see you have spent a considerable length of time feeling angst for my situation and the time you have spent is heartfelt. I thank you. You have mentioned many, many points that my husband and I have discussed at length. While I appreciate the purpose for which you have responded, I feel I should point out a couple of things that have left me feeling uneasy.
1. You missed the very thing that started me on this journey of discovery. In my very first post I stated:
Quote:How can it be that these devout members of the ONE true church have received these revelations on my behalf…
While I truly appreciate your concern, you have presented your post as though you have been guided by God to give me revelation about my own spirituality. I speak with God daily and I feel he is guiding me where I need to be. I LOVE that he trusts me enough to send me through controversial waters of historical facts, challenging my own belief system and even prompting me to break a commandment here and there to BETTER understand the atonement. God is my guide. HE knows me and HE knows what I need to hear and do.2. I can feel your passion for the gospel and the absolute truth that your testimony holds for YOU. I think that is wonderful. But my journey is my journey. You said…
Quote:you are seeking the truth, right? Or are you seeking self justification, the choice is yours
You are making an assumption that if I choose something that you wouldn’t choose, somehow my choice is justification…this is false.
Quote:Wake up and see these evidences for what they mean, I implore you.
Again, I must take your interpretation as being the end of the story. I understand that you feel the need to help me see the light. But please understand that I love God with all of my heart and I am so carefully treading these waters of doubt. The only thing I know as an absolute right now is that God is mindful of me and guiding me. He does not want me to blindly follow your interpretation. By asking me to wake up and see what you see, you are robbing me of the journey that I am currently experiencing with God. One day I may have the same testimony that I once had. But your telling me to wake up does not speed the process of what God is asking me to learn. I love God too much to blindly follow what kentbower interprets on my behalf.I apologize if that sounds harsh or unkind. I just want my journey of faith to be between me and God. Not me, God and any member that feels it is there responsibility to right my path.
Quote:Are you truly seeking? Find your scriptures and read it.
Just because I do not currently choose to read the Book of Mormon doesn’t mean I am not seeking answers from scripture. I know I will return to reading the Book of Mormon one day. It still holds a place in my heart. I will get there when God want me there.
Quote:Both these videos are directed to you. You mentioned, “I was prayerful the entire way.” When you pray for answers, it is wisdom to not dismiss them when they come.
Please do not presume that I am dismissing answers to prayers. That is between me and God.
Quote:“I cannot even open the book,” is utterly and precisely how the adversary would have it.
I disagree. God knows what I need right now. He needs me to make peace with the history of the church. How I will do that has yet to be determined. But until I feel peace about the Book of Mormon, God does not need or expect me to open it.Please know that I do appreciate your intentions here. I do. I have read your thoughts carefully and they are of value. My journey is no less God driven than yours is. What I am accepting as truth, is no less valid than what you accept as truth.
figuringitout–very cool reply to kent. you show a refreshing maturity of faith. cheers!
Yup, like wayfarer said, that was a wonderfully measured response to a kent’s post that had initially made my blood boil. I hope to have you participate more in future. We need balanced minds like yours to be part of the conversation.
Dear FiguringItOut, Thank you for your reply. My heart goes with you as you find yourself in these tough times! I hope you will, as I have, find the desire to learn more about the Book of Mormon and be drawn to it. It’s an amazing singularity.
Several readers (maybe yourself included) interpreted my post as a presumption of having received revelation in your behalf. This was not the case. I felt an overwhelming demand to take time to reply to you. I believed it was the spirit asking me to testify. (Felt it then and still do.) But there is a difference between testifying and receiving revelation for. Certainly God can ask us to testify to complete strangers… in fact, doesn’t He command us to? (If there were parts that sounded like I presumed to be receiving direct revelation for you, I didn’t write those parts well or shouldn’t have written them.) In my case, I felt I needed to testify, in a non trivial way, some thoughts and discoveries that were comforts to me when I felt some of the same feelings you described. There are, of course, many more, but I’ve already consumed much too much, for which I’ve been reprimanded.
So, my conviction I felt to share with you is this: it’s all true, the Book of Mormon, the Church, the Priesthood. Despite the confusing and sometimes disturbing things. Hope you’ll find it too!
Figuringitout, I loved the language and feel of your post, Particularity to Kent. It was beautiful with clear and loving boundaries. I am in awe at the clarity that most people here post with. I admire it and desire that clarity! I read it twice.
I really related to your post about Coffee. I almost wen to starbucks yesterday because I “COULD”. I feel like a child who just got out of fat camp who wants to go to the candy store, icecream shop and anything else that was “off limits”. I stopped myself b/c honestly, I am scared of where that would lead. I LOVE coffee! I used to drink it everyday (when I smoked, did pot and drank everyday.. all or nothing), I have fond memories of my mawmaw house smelling like coffee. I don’t believe it to be much worse for me than diet soda. But I had to stop because for me I am not ready to give up my temple recommend and for some reason I can drink green tea (cold) and feel that it is much better for me and cleanses me so I feel honest in saying I obey the word of wisdom. But coffee still seems more “off limits” to me, more forbidden. I am trying to come to a place to drink the coffee (if that is what I felt good about) and not have it trigger huge emotions of shame that could lead to other self destructive behaviors. I know this sounds dramatic, but I am a dramatic black and white thinker. I hope to retrain my brain to find balance. I KNOW the key for me is to really have a real relationship with God. As was your example of stopping to pray about drinking the coffee and finding the confirmation to do it. That was beautiful!! Mind opening!!!
I wish you well on your journey and can’t wait to read more from you.
Quote:“I have discovered many things from early church history that rattle me to the core and make me feel both elated and devastated at the same time. Elated, because I feel like God is guiding me to a greater understanding of his world and because it seems perhaps his world is not as rigid and filled with rules as the mormon church claims. But devastated because I am mourning the loss of my identity and what once held my heart and soul.”
I can relate wholeheartedly to this statement. I feel like I’m going through an identity crisis, but at the same time really learning about my religion for the first time in a while, seeing it with new eyes. It hurts sometimes & it’s scary to not ” know” anymore, but I think I can find a happy medium between the hardline and total disbelief. I believe you will too, it sounds like you are very in tune with the Lord and that he will guide you on your journey. I’ve found this site to be a great source of support and have gained a wealth of information, I deeply appreciated all the different perspectives offered here. Welcome.
This might sound a little strange, but I don’t think Kent’s long apologetic was meant for figuringitout at all. I think it was meant for me. I have struggled with the concept of faith for years. I’ve had beliefs, but couldn’t find a church that was compatible with them. I never thought to look to the Mormons, because they’re, you know, WEIRD. They believe a lot of really freaky things and they’re not, you know, CHRISTIAN.
But then I felt our Heavenly Father calling me, and decided to trust in Him and do what he asked of me. And my life has turned inside-out.
So I understand him when he says he felt the necessity to respond. It’s the same sense of urgency that made me check out a church I had no intention of EVER joining. And now I’ve attended a few weeks and can’t wait for the next.
I have FELT the Truth in so much of what I’ve read that it frightens me. But I’m afraid of being lead astray, and, lengthy though it was, Kent’s essay made me feel a lot better about the company I believe I am about to choose to keep. Maybe that’s why he felt compelled to comment. So, thank you, Kent!
🙂 And figuringitout, I was musing on faith at church today, and the joke was made that “‘faith’ is an action word.” I’ve learned a lot about it over the past few months. It is human nature to doubt. The women went to the tomb on Easter to annoint Jesus’ body. THEY didn’t believe he would be risen. The Apostles were SHOCKED to see him risen. THEY didn’t believe he would be resurrected. Jesus HIMSELF had a moment of doubt on the cross. If all of these had doubts, and THEY WERE THERE, then perhaps I can be forgiven for my occasional lapses of faith. In addition, look at the histories we’ve been given, both in the Bible and the Book of Mormon: The CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD FELL FROM FAITH REPEATEDLY!! God freed His people from Egypt, then parted the Red Sea, then spoke to them at Sinai, and two days later, they were, “But what has he done for us lately? Let’s worship a golden calf!”
And every time the people fell, He may have been angry and punished them, but when they repented, He accepted them back and kept His covenants with them. He understands what you’re going through. Don’t let the imperfect people around you distract you from the perfect love your Heavenly Father has for you. Given enough time, people will ALWAYS disappoint us. But God will keep His promises. Every time.
Thanks for your perspective, arik. The diversity of experience and view is my favorite aspect of this community – and we need fresh eyes sometimes to help blunt the tendency to obsess over difficulties.
Wow, Wow, Wow. IT is so amazing to hear you journey, and see how closely it mirrors mine. That is the cool thing about this community, being able to relate like that. What is cooler is how hearing your first post I wanted to tell you several things that helped me, but would see in the next post that you figured it out with God. I don’t think I have anything else to add. You are devoted to following your heart, mind, and God and only good could come from that. You are an example of strength and totally inspiring to me.
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