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Hi everyone. I haven’t felt like posting lately until now. The past few months has been a whirlwind. I don’t know how to explain it but after 30+ years of being a member I have found that I am used to the culture and find that my roots in the church have made it very difficult to cut the tie. Just read old posts of mine and you will notice my shifting. There are very deep emotions I have being raised in the church. Lately I have found myself in a few awkward positions in my relationships with others as well. I am going to try and attempt to summarize a few experiences: First of all, my wife had a medical problem a few years ago. She actually died and was revived. This was a unique time in our lives because we lost a lot financially during this time. Up to this point I had given my wife many blessings that actually came true. When my wife was revived I thought that she would be a hard core mormon because of these amazing experiences. Well…. she actually changed paths completely. She changed her tone and decided she believed in Grace and not Mormonism. She said that the experience caused her to believe in the complete Grace of Christ’s salvation. She rejected JS and said only Christ could judge her. She also rejected many other teachings in the church. Well I just kept taking her to church, but eventually she wouldn’t go without me dragging her. With a few kids this became very tiring for me. I finally started going by myself. She then came when she felt like it. When I learned about some doctrines in the church I started to question. Ironically my wife encouraged me not to leave. Her parents divorced because of one leaving and one staying lds.
I have been used to the mormon way of life. I have always been a 50/50 member. I’ve never broken the mormon “rules” and even felt I had a Testimony. I felt more obligated to repent to my bishop even if I already felt forgiveness from God. When I expressed concerns with the bishop I was told to go on blind faith. This was easy to do but not very fulfilling. Well now things have changed. As many of you know I have struggled with the idea of drinking alcohol (not such a bad thing) and though I don’t care for much of the temple ceremonies I do like wearing the garments. They feel like a warm blanket on me. This past month I decided to break these bonds and try things out for myself.
1) I decided to take a drink. I discovered that “beer” taste terrible though I like pina colada. I actually found that drinking is not quite what I expected. I don’t care for it much but don’t feel guilty for having a drink. I’m not in a rush to drink again anytime soon, as it wasn’t that big of a deal. The weird thing is I don’t feel guilty about it. Either I’ve lost the spirit or God doesn’t care much about whether I drink a little here and there. I also don’t understand what the big deal is if JS and Christ drank why not us? However, I don’t think it should be used as a way to escape from problems.
2) I also took off my garments. Now ironically I thought I would feel uncomfortable drinking but not taking off the garments. I actually felt the opposite. Every day I didn’t wear my garments I felt uncomfortable. Instead of putting them back on I bought similar style underwear as the garments to see if that helped. It actually did but eventually I put back on the garments. I’m not sure why but I feel more comfortable with this. I don’t like feeling uneasy so I will continue to wear them.
I really needed to do this for myself. I actually am glad I did this. Now my wife saw me doing these things and decided she would like to do them as well. Well she is different then me. She had a spiritual experience that very few have had. She doesn’t like wearing garments. Her dad is Christian and was excommunicated for joining another church. (yes it happens.) We spent the holidays with him and he feels like his daughter has been re-born in Christ because of her experience. Her mother is mormon and thinks that she needs to be medicated for depression. The truth is the LDS church doesn’t fit my wife well. She really believes in Grace. I decided to attend a grace driven church to see how I felt. I went alone as I didn’t want to be influenced by my wife or any one else. It was a nice church. It was a feel good church. I didn’t mind it but it didn’t have the meat that I like in doctrine. I’m sure that my wife would love it though.
We have two neighbors. One family is LDS and the other family attends a Christian church. I went to their church when they were out of town. They don’t know that I attended it. I did this because they invited us to go with them and I wanted to see what it was like before taking my wife and children there. The LDS couple has invited us to go with them as well. Both families are very close to each other. My LDS neighbor has been trying to convert them for quite a while to the LDS faith and even gave them an ensign subscription which they read. Now that we’ve moved in the other family feels strengthened by their beliefs because of my wife’s story. Oh what have I gotten myself into this time?
😳 The LDS couple looks sad when they see me. The husband looks at me with the most perplexed expression that I can’t help but smile internally because I think I know what he’s thinking. I’m sort of avoiding both families as I don’t want to get caught in the cross fire.We have become the need to convert family by both families. The truth is I don’t care what either family thinks, only what God thinks. I also am worried about my marriage. Not because we are having issues but because of what could happen. We have kids. My 10 year old wants to go to church but my wife isn’t sure if she wants him raised mormon. Though she is willing to let me take him. I haven’t been to church since we moved here and am still working through my issues. My wife would probably like the other church but I don’t want to take her. I don’t know quite how to explain myself but I am still confused.
I believe that JS saw God emotionally, but I can’t justify it logically. I believe that he was probably a fallen prophet but am not convinced of a restoration. The fact is Christians were killed long after Christ died. I think BY was more of a general then a true prophet. I believe in the Godhead concept but not the trinity. Again I feel this emotionally and have no logical justification for it. I believe my wife had an amazing experience due to her change from mormonism. On the other hand I know how to raise my kids in the LDS world but not outside of it. My wife feels the priesthood is used by men to control women and those underneath them. I think the only reason she hasn’t completely left is that she loves me and saw what happened to her parents. She and I both want our kids to be raised as a family together. We are both concerned about what could happen if she went to another church. She admitted that the influences of the other religion may cause her to want to keep the kids from being raised LDS. But she is willing to go to the LDS church with me as a support or have me take the kids and she’ll stay home for now.
I feel it’s just a matter of time before she goes to another church. Once this happens I think she will never want to come back to the LDS church. The funny thing is I thought I would not have a problem with this but my emotions and logic don’t quite agree with each other. Anyway, I wish I had things figured out.
Thanks for the post. That’s a lot to think about. I don’t have any answers for you, just a few thoughts. There’s more common ground between your wife’s views and the church’s than she seems to see. We too believe in being saved by grace, and in Christ being our judge. Does she reject the book of James in the NT (as do some evangelical Christians)? Personally, I think there’s something to be said for finding common ground and focusing on similarities rather than differences (whether it’s you going to a non-LDS church or your wife & you going to the LDS church). My only advice is to refrain from being controlling toward your wife in any way; respect her views, and explore your own with an open mind. You sound as though you have had spiritual experiences in the past. I’d continue to seek those where you find them.
As to the drinking, it’s not some huge sin and doesn’t require confession, although it can lead to addiction, loss of inhibition, etc., that can lead to sins. It’s also an acquired taste that is essentially a total waste of money. Most people I know (non-LDS) who seek enlightenment through Buddhism, meditation and whatnot dramatically curtail their drinking because it clouds their mental clarity. Most of my non-LDS friends spend about 10% of their income on alcohol, roughly what we pay in tithing. I like to think that tithing is a better investment, even when those funds are not always used the best way they could be.
So your wife had an NDE? Has she written it down? I sure hope so. Then she needs to let that stand. If she wants to modify or change the text, she should do so as an addendum, not as an actual physical change to the original text. I would think Tom Haws would have much to say on this topic. He almost dumped the Church too, due to the errors and misunderstandings that have crept in to our way of worship. But it’s better that he address it.
The more I study the Gospel, the more Grace makes sense. For me, my covenants help me build my faith (ability to do), whilst for a fact I already know God has claimed me His and will never let me go. I obey because I love Him, not to build a reward.
HiJolly
I guess all I have to offer is .. Love your (literal) neighbors, be freindly but religion doesn’t have to be a sore repetitive subject between both families, unless somewhere boundaries aren’t being addressed or respected properly-if thats the reason set it straight. You don’t have to go to a Church just because somone asks you too but you can go if you desire to. Religion is personal. Spirituality is personal. “I need to share my religion and demand it on the world or my neighbor-because that is what I HAVE to do” is definately a real thinking process for some people. It will happen but that doesn’t mean you can’t fix it or set boundaries. Sometimes people that think that way really don’t understand how important personal spirituality is until someone questions or trys to encourage change in their belief system – even then sometimes they still don’t realize it .. goes right over their head and they still continue to try and make everyone get involoved in their belief system..I admire them but I am not one of them. Second I would work very hard at living in the present. Having worry and stress about future possibilities is not good for your mental, spiritual or pyshical health. It is so so important to make the absolute best of your day, now. There are things you can prepare for in life but future emotion and future possible spiritual experiences will happen .. You can influence and and positivly enforce future energy(?) or senarios but only when you are living in the present … If it is the present and you are living in the fear of the future .. The fear will constantly create a snowball effect .. of never letting you experience happiness and control of the one thing you actually have some control over, your present state of mind and emotion.
Anyway those are two things that stuck out at me from your post.
My wife doesn’t remember anything during her death. She just came back changed. It’s so difficult to explain. My wife was a temple going, church attending, strong LDS believer. She literally changed from the time she died to the time she woke up. I can’t explain it as it’s been difficult for me to understand, as my change takes a lot more time. But the fact that this happened has lead me to research it as she is my spouse. She doesn’t know why other then she believes there was no restoration needed after Christ and Grace is sufficient. She’s not angry but sees that the LDS church is full of people who don’t think for themselves. She refers to grace as a difficult concept for many mormons to get. The idea is that you have a direct conversation with God. That because of this God will tell you what is true and that there is no need for a prophet but instead “prophetic people.” She disagrees on many of the church’s conservative stances including Prop 8 and the need of a temple. Why have priesthood, temple endowments etc. when you have Christ? Why excommunicate for minor things like disagreeing with the prophet? Why not open dialogue and welcomed differences even if it makes things harder. We all know that if you disagree with teachings from the prophet at church you may be punished? If you question priesthood authority and doctrine in the church you may be asked to leave. I have seen this through out my life. She basically thinks Christ fulfilled everything necessary for salvation thus the LDS church is not needed. She’s not rude or abrupt about it. She’s respectful and kind. She sees the authority concept of the church tends to favor men as there is no women in the quorum of the twelve. Why can’t a woman lead the men? Yes she’s a bit of a feminist. Unfortunately I change diapers more often because of this
Well, of course, I think your wife’s view is true enough for after we die. I can’t imagine there will be churches. Churches are human institutions to help people support one another in coming to Christ. Hi godlives, I enjoyed reading your post. A lot of people won’t agree with me but I think prayer and blessings can be the same thing, so it looks like God answered your prayer(blessing) for your wife. It sounds like your wife is on her own personal spiritual journey. We each have to find our own way. You sound like you accept her for who she is which is the best thing you can do for her. I too don’t care for the temple ceremonies but right now but I like to wear my garments. They are so comfortable and I get a secure feeling wearing them. I grew up in the Catholic church so I drank beer and other drinks but not very much because they do taste awful!
It looks like you are right on concerning your neighbors. It doesn’t matter what they think. Like LaLaLove said you just love them for who they are which I’m sure you are already doing that.
We all have different beliefs about God and church. I have different ones than you and a lot of other people but I decided that it is okay. My beliefs might change later, who knows. Ray said once we have to “agree to disagree”. My husband and I disagree on a lot of things now. It is very hard. But I love him and I want him to be happy with his belief’s too.
I actually believe a lot of what your wife believes about prophets,temple,priesthood,church court….. I haven’t decided about the Grace thing. I feel like we need to work at being the best we can be and treat people well.
godlives wrote:I also am worried about my marriage. Not because we are having issues but because of what could happen. We have kids.
First of all, thanks for posting your feelings. I feel for you as you go through your struggles, and identify some similar feelings I have as yours, even though our situations are quite different.While it seems that many of your questions/issues/emotions make take some time to really figure out or understand, and taking your time to let yourself figure it out is advisable, this part of your message (quoted above) struck me as something that you should set a priority on trying to address sooner rather than later, and not be passive with it.
Just because problems COULD happen with your marriage…fact is that it sounds like there are no current issues in your marriage, and you should recognize that and strive to keep it that way, not assume it will go south just because of religious beliefs. You don’t want that to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Others in the church may not agree with me, but I feel strongly that keeping the family strong and the kids taught about love and forgiveness and moral standards is more important than attendance to any church. Church is there to help you, not to set a standard that you either have to conform to or break your family up trying to do so. God judges us on how we handle our current situations, not if we became good enough mormons or not. Some people make it work by attending different churches. That is fine. Some make it work by attending no church. That is fine. Most importantly, the family grows in love, support, respect, and happiness. I have worked hard this last year to make sure I put my family first (as the church teaches), and view the church as a way to help teach me how to do that, not inflict rules on my family that we must be active members or we’re all doomed to the lake of fire.
Family relationships can be strengthened through seeking Christ-like qualities in ourselves and teaching those to our kids, but the church does not have any value to me if it does not benefit me or my family. I also agree with Hawkgrrrl, that whatever church your wife goes to, there is plenty of common ground to build off of to set that foundation for strengthening your family, and you don’t have to focus on the differences between Mormonism and other christian faiths. Yes, differences exist, but so much overlap exists that could provide enough common ground to study for a lifetime without having to reconcile differences.
I would urge you to keep your family and your marriage as a priority, and not set up expectations your family will suffer from you holding on to your mormon faith. Instead, find out how true mormon faith can be molded and shaped to be used for your unique family, even if that is not typical mormon faith members in your ward or your neighbors view that you should exhibit.
Those are my thoughts. God be with you.
Yes family is first. My mother-in-law (remarried) talked about this on the phone with her for a couple of hours. She made a choice of staying LDS above her marriage, though there were several issues. But her opinion is very much TBM, basically the temple and the church comes first. If one of us doesn’t keep the covenants then we have a right to divorce. It’s more important for the kids to be raised LDS then not. We spent New Years at my father-in-law’s home. He has quite a selection of alcohol in the house. I tasted a few different types while I was there. I was offered a dark beer at dinner. I tried a little but just like the light beers, still didn’t care for it. That night I put my son to bed and he seemed a little sad. I asked him what was wrong and he said to me, “you drank beer.” I asked him what the concern is? He first verified that I wouldn’t be driving, though I only had five sips. I assured him I wouldn’t and he seemed a little happier. He then explained that at church we are told that drinking beer is wrong. He expressed to me that he wanted to stay mormon and if I did that I would be in trouble. I had no idea this would affect him at that level. To add to this, earlier last year he came home from church and told my wife that he might not be able to go to heaven because he’s not good enough. My wife couldn’t believe that my son would worry about such things at 10 years old. My son takes things to the letter and that worries both me and my wife. If you tell him it is wrong he will think that way. He is very black and white in the way he thinks. My wife and I are at a conflicting moment where we both see things differently and are not sure what the best solution is for the family. For now we stay home, but are trying to work through all of this.
Wow, deep stuff, godlives. Well, I actually can relate totally to both you and your wife. I’ve been in both places in my journey this last 18 months or so. I don’t even know where to start. My ten-year-old also expresses disappointment when I drink. He too is very black/white. I think it’s an age thing, though others here may have a better idea because he’s my oldest and I don’t know if it’s something they grow out of, more likely it just morphs into something different. I have the same conflicting feelings about this because I want my sons to grow up to be open-minded, mostly because I’m so repulsed by black/white thinking (emotional reaction from childhood abuse).
From a big picture perspective, I agree with everyone else. You’re on your own journeys and really just need to be there for each other. It’s a respect thing. Image is what gets in the way. The more you respect your DW’s journey, the more she can respect yours. There doesn’t always have to be a right answer or a wrong answer. Sometimes the answer is just an answer.
We’re all recovering from co-dependency, and I totally get your DW’s nervousness about raising the kids mormon. I have the same trepidation, coming from a black/white childhood, my instinct is to reject it all.
I’m getting to a place where I recognize that maybe the best thing for my kids is to be immersed in the ambivalence. Free form thought, multiple religious/spiritual experiences from multiple sources, constant questioning of thoughts, feelings, ideas, engaging the possibilities rather than clinging to certainty. In that context, all ideologies are of equal value and the meaning is individual. I’m hoping that this approach will work out best for my boys.
I appreciate your journey. It’s so, so, so similar to mine. What LaLa said is so right on. Stay present. Absorb the experiences for what they are: beautiful experiences. You’re living!! Life is teaching you many things. Embrace the opportunity. Stay honest with yourself. You don’t have to justify thoughts that seem contradictory or seem to go against a previous mind-set. These thoughts are teaching you as well. Explore them honestly. Stay open to possibilities. Don’t worry about doing it right. Right will find you if you’re being honest with yourself and true to the light inside of you.
I wish I could just transpose the last year of my life into your brain so you can glimpse the potentialities for yourself, your DW, your marriage, your kids. I still have a ways to go but the heights of profound joy and happiness and intimacy, I now know, were only reached by my willingness to take this journey, despite all of the “problems” it caused others.
I had a couple of impressions while reading your post. I have been going through an interesting time myself with the Church doctrines. My impressions are regarding your testing out the alcohol and removing your garments. God is a personal God, and knows and loves you unconditionally. Most Mormons will disagree with what I say because of the church culture. But I am pretty sure I am alright doctrinally in saying what I am about to say. When you live the commandment, and don’t receive the testimony of the Spirit, it may be because God expects you to determine for yourself what you really believe about certain commandments and practices. I have paid tithing my entire life, until I was disfellowshipped. In my mind I decided that I wouldn’t pay the membership dues if they weren’t going to let me into the “clubhouse” so to speak, awful analogy for the temple, maybe, but that’s pretty much how I felt. I haven’t paid tithing in over a year now, even though I did pay to get my TR back when I was welcomed back into full fellowship. All the horrible things that people told me would happen all my life, have not happened. I am not saying everyone should quit paying tithing, or go out and drink, or take of the garment, but when you feel a strong desire to know, then the Holy Ghost will teach you as you test these things out for yourself whether or not they are true. I would look at both of your experiences as testimonial witnesses from the Holy Ghost. You didn’t like alcohol, but you didn’t feel guilty either. So you probably won’t do it again. This could be a testimony as I see it. That is a position of power and control over your life, not a whimpering fear of losing your soul. My mom made all her kids memorize 2Tim 1:7 “for God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind.” God wants us to feel in control of our lives. He wants us to act from a position of power and love, not from a position of doubt or fear. I feel like your tests are coming from a position of power, not doubt. Maybe I’m wrong. On the other hand, your garment situation may be from habit. Whenever we adjust the innermost clothes we wear, it is bound to be very uncomfortable. I removed my garments about 2 months ago, and I feel odd sometimes wearing and A-shirt and feeling my outer shirt on my shoulders and arms. But I don’t feel spiritually unclean. I don’t know if any of this helps, but I offer it in a spirit of understanding and a desire to help. One quick thought only for now: Your wife apparently has some major misunderstandings of what I call the core principles of Mormonsim (or “pure Mormonism”). It seems to me that she let go of her previous misconceptions, while not realizing they were misconceptions – so she is giving up what was never in “pure Mormonism” in the first place.
That’s fine at the beginning, especially if that was the only way to let go of the misconceptions, but be careful not to throw out the baby with her bathwater.
Hi. ALCOHOL
I’m an oldest kid and a black and white thinker. At ten, I would have been absolutely heartbroken and devastated if my dad had sipped beer. If your son is anything like me, he will profit best from being able to chat with you at length and hear your thoughts on it. Maybe even some additional (possibly discomforting) facts about Jesus and Joseph Smith, closing with your strong belief in keeping a clear mind and living responsibly before God and man.
DEATH AND BACK
It sounds like your wife’s religion is a lot like mine and Monkey’s. But I don’t emphasize Christ in the position of Grace. To me it’s a native attribute of the Highest. I hope you thank heaven everyday for the privilege of having that experience in your family.
Ray, I appreciate your comment but I have no way of helping her in the core or “pure” doctrine area. The more I look at church doctrine the more it appears made up out of convenience based on a situation and society at the time. I think they do good things but doctrine? What is LDS doctrine? Blacks and the Priesthood, BoA, polygamy, BY and his claims, the succession after JS died, SLC new downtown, feminism, temple ceremonies etc. For her JS simply was never a prophet. Christ is salvation. All LDS history and the current church’s position regarding prop 8 does is secure her belief that the church is no better then any other church, and sometimes a lot worse. For me to try to convince her or help her believe in doctrine is a mistake. I don’t believe in most of the church as “true” like I used to. I see it as a tool out of a toolbox of options on how to learn about God. I do however have something in my heart that is fighting against all of my logical disbeliefs to stay in the church and that is why I continue to post on this site. I have no other place to express my feelings. My family doesn’t even know that I don’t attend church anymore. They think I’m TBM. JS is still an active part of my belief system as is Christ but the church is still not very open to discussing anything that could prove it other then the “only true church.” She has been through a lot in her life and I’m in no place to help her other then praying and hoping God will guide both of us and our family to the truth’s in life that allow us to be truly happy. For her it’s a trade off, one parent still agrees with her, she’s just changed sides I think… For me it’s just hope… hope that some day this journey will make sense and my family, especially children, will be better for it.
Tom Haws wrote:If your son is anything like me, he will profit best from being able to chat with you at length and hear your thoughts on it. Maybe even some additional (possibly discomforting) facts about Jesus and Joseph Smith, closing with your strong belief in keeping a clear mind and living responsibly before God and man.
Funny you should mention this. I picked him up from school today and took him to McDonald’s to chat. I told him I still believed in God. He asked me if I still believed in the Book of Mormon. I told him I believed it was a good book and so was the Bible. I explained to him that actions in life and core principles were more important to me then a book of scripture. But explained that we can still learn from these stories. He asked me if I would refrain from drinking in front of him, at least wait until he went to bed or wasn’t in the room. I asked him why this was important to him and he said because he would never drink something that would hurt his body or taste yucky so it’s hard for him to watch me do it. I used this to discuss principles and truth as I know it. I also told him that though I may not live up to his or others expectations that I was trying to live up to what I thought was right. He told me he loved me and was glad I believed in God. Who is the adult here with faith? We have lots to discuss but at least we are talking.
Quote:
DEATH AND BACKIt sounds like your wife’s religion is a lot like mine and Monkey’s. But I don’t emphasize Christ in the position of Grace. To me it’s a native attribute of the Highest. I hope you thank heaven everyday for the privilege of having that experience in your family.
Yes.
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