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That’s kind of a far stretch.
Why – first, for you, and second, for someone else?
To use an extreme example, Jesus was chastised for going for a walk on the Sabbath and allowing corn to be picked and eaten while he and his disciples walked. We can’t know for sure, but it is likely that he didn’t attend synagogue quite often, given what is available in the Gospels – but, at the very least, it is dead certain he didn’t follow the customs / traditions of the time that dictated what was necessary to be close to God (on multiple levels with regard to lots of things).
I attend every meeting each Sunday. I never go on walks instead of attending church. When I was on the high council, at one point I attended roughly eight hours of meetings almost every Sunday. I enjoy church, but I don’t get fed spiritually on a fairly regular basis. I also know members who are able to continue to function to the best of their ability because they are willing to take a Sunday off from church occasionally in order to recharge their spiritual batteries doing something else – something like walking in nature and communing directly with God in a place that feels like their own sacred grove. They are better for it, in multiple ways, and I absolutely am not going to insist they do exactly what works for me and stop doing what works for them. It would be like insisting my mom stop taking her schizophrenia medication and start taking my son’s diabetes medicine because it keeps him alive and healthy.
Not a good idea. Each person must be accountable for their own spiritual growth and nourishment, and doing something differently than I do (or differently than the communal norm) is within their stewardship as agents unto themselves.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:That’s kind of a far stretch.
Why – first, for you, and second, for someone else?
To use an extreme example, Jesus was chastised for going for a walk on the Sabbath and allowing corn to be picked and eaten while he and his disciples walked. We can’t know for sure, but it is likely that he didn’t attend synagogue quite often, given what is available in the Gospels – but, at the very least, it is dead certain he didn’t follow the customs / traditions of the time that dictated what was necessary to be close to God (on multiple levels with regard to lots of things).
I attend every meeting each Sunday. I never go on walks instead of attending church. When I was on the high council, at one point I attended roughly eight hours of meetings almost every Sunday. I enjoy church, but I don’t get fed spiritually on a fairly regular basis. I also know members who are able to continue to function to the best of their ability because they are willing to take a Sunday off from church occasionally in order to recharge their spiritual batteries doing something else – something like walking in nature and communing directly with God in a place that feels like their own sacred grove. They are better for it, in multiple ways, and I absolutely am not going to insist they do exactly what works for me and stop doing what works for them. It would be like insisting my mom stop taking her schizophrenia medication and start taking my son’s diabetes medicine because it keeps him alive and healthy.
Not a good idea. Each person must be accountable for their own spiritual growth and nourishment, and doing something differently than I do (or differently than the communal norm) is within their stewardship as agents unto themselves.
I’ll add this to Ray’s comment:
Quote:One person’s good idea—something that may work for him or her—takes root and becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles can get lost within the labyrinth of “good ideas.” This was one of the Savior’s criticisms of the religious “experts” of His day, whom He chastised for attending to the hundreds of minor details of the law while neglecting the weightier matters
-Pres. Dieter F. Uchtdorf
Rsbenson wrote:Just one monstrous problem. You used a quote from Elder Oaks to support a ‘going for a walk on Sunday instead of going to Church’ concept? That’s kind of a far stretch.
I can tell you haven’t read Elder Oaks’ talk, and you come across to me as one who thinks you have all the answers. That is the monstrous problem here.Elder Oaks’ talk doesn’t talk about going to Church on Sunday. If you care to read just a couple quotes which might peak your interest to actually go read the Apostle talk truth, two good quotes support my position that “straight” could include skipping church and going on a walk in nature.
Elder Oaks wrote:Now is the time for each of us to work toward our personal conversion, toward becoming what our Heavenly Father desires us to become. As we do so, we should remember that our family relationships—even more than our Church callings—are the setting in which the most important part of that development can occur. The conversion we must achieve requires us to be a good husband and father or a good wife and mother. Being a successful Church leader is not enough. Exaltation is an eternal family experience, and it is our mortal family experiences that are best suited to prepare us for it.
The Apostle John spoke of what we are challenged to become when he said: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 Jn. 3:2; see also Moro. 7:48).
I hope the importance of conversion and becoming will cause our local leaders to reduce their concentration on statistical measures of actions and to focus more on what our brothers and sisters are and what they are striving to become.
The statistical measure of attending church on Sunday seems to be less important to Elder Oaks than what I hear from you. He goes on to say…
Oaks wrote:Instead of being judgmental about others, we should be concerned about ourselves. We must not give up hope. We must not stop striving. We are children of God, and it is possible for us to become what our Heavenly Father would have us become.
How can we measure our progress? The scriptures suggest various ways. I will mention only two.
what were his suggestions? Read further and find out. I’ll let you and others read the rest if interested, but … spoiler alert … neither of his two ways is going to church on Sunday.I’m not against attending church. I’ll be there this Sunday. I’m just suggesting we keep things in proper perspective, and follow the spirit, and the apostles who tell us to be properly converted to the gospel, instead of judgmental about others. I’m sure Elder Oaks recommends church every Sunday…that in and of itself is not the purpose of the Gospel, which is to help us “become what we are to become”. I’m not sure he would object to me finding God in nature on Sunday.
Concerning the lighthouse metaphor — I really love the thought that all boats are different, all maps may not be correct, and all paths may not be safe even though they are going in the right direction. Ever since my FC, I’ve strongly held the belief that there are many paths but only one direction. And I’ve always thought of it as climbing a mountain in an attempt to meet the summit. There will be the well-trodden paths that those before us have created to provide a relatively safe and clear way for those who follow. Many of these paths have to be maintained to keep them safe. However, there will always be some of us who start at the bottom of the mountain where we cannot see the path, and we have to make our own way. Sometimes, we reach parts of the mountain where we do not have the skills to continue, or we attempt to create a path through dangerous territory and fail. But those who try to make it to the top are still attempting to go in the right direction. And there are certainly others who have no interest in climbing the mountain at all. Concerning the walk in nature versus attending church — shortly before my FC, I determined that I was going to take one weekend a month off to go to a national park (there are many where I live) with some of my close friends for the sole purpose of enjoying nature and each other’s company before I left on my health mission. The trips required me to miss attending church. However, each time I went on the trip, my mind would trigger a memorized line from my patriarchal blessing, which basically told me to enjoy the glorious beauty of nature, for it is God’s gift, and it would bring me closer to Him. And it did. It was the first time I heard one of my now closest friends refer to his belief God, when we stood at the edge of a cliff, looking out over a landscape that was so breathtaking that there are no words to describe it.
The same friend has now become one of my very few outlets (total count: two) for pleasant, honest religious discourse outside of this forum. The moment on that cliff opened up the opportunity for us to share our beliefs and theories with each other very openly, and it has help me greatly with relieving stress from my FC and helping me rebuild my foundation of beliefs. Because of it, I was able to get over the anger and depression phases of my FC very quickly — it’s only been a few months since my FC, but I already feel more at peace with my beliefs than for many years prior, even though I am still rebuilding.
For me, going to church every single Sunday for three hours without fail was not the path I needed to take. However, completely dropping my church attendance has also not been the right path for me. Back to the mountain analogy, it seems like I’m more the person who keeps the path within view and continues laboring towards the summit, but I need to stray off to see what else the landscape has to offer.
West, I needed to hear this tonight. Thank you so much for sharing. It’s interesting to me how our metaphors typically include nature to convey deep meaning (oceans, mountains, light, seeds, tempests, etc.)
Perhaps a bit if irony that we gather indoors for three hours on a Sunday to discuss the outdoors so much. But I like your once a month retreat to nature. And how your mind reflected on the words of your personal scripture.
Thanks for sharing.
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Quote:It’s interesting to me how our metaphors typically include nature to convey deep meaning (oceans, mountains, light, seeds, tempests, etc.)
Perhaps a bit if irony that we gather indoors for three hours on a Sunday to discuss the outdoors so much.
I’ve never really thought of that before, but it’s very true, at least in my experience. My favorite metaphors, the ones that I remember, relate to nature, and I heard them used in church all through growing up. Perhaps we relate to nature better because it’s not man-made, and therefore as close to a physical manifestation of God’s power as we can get without actually seeing God or some sort of miracle.Or maybe it’s just built within us to find nature really cool and relatable.
West wrote:Perhaps we relate to nature better because it’s not man-made, and therefore as close to a physical manifestation of God’s power as we can get without actually seeing God or some sort of miracle.
Or maybe it’s just built within us to find nature really cool and relatable.
I think so. I have hiked to the top of a mountain and enjoyed the view and took pictures. There is a difference between looking at the picture and the experience of seeing the view with my own eyes. Experience is part of it.Heber13 wrote:West wrote:Perhaps we relate to nature better because it’s not man-made, and therefore as close to a physical manifestation of God’s power as we can get without actually seeing God or some sort of miracle.
Or maybe it’s just built within us to find nature really cool and relatable.
I think so. I have hiked to the top of a mountain and enjoyed the view and took pictures. There is a difference between looking at the picture and the experience of seeing the view with my own eyes. Experience is part of it.Totally agreed to both sentiments, as a nature lover, it makes sense, as a photographer- trying to capture the essence is the toughest part of capturing.
I believe there is only one Way to God. Their are many ways to destruction but only one Way to God. 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
– St John 14 1-7 King James Version
West wrote:
Concerning the lighthouse metaphor — I really love the thought that all boats are different, all maps may not be correct, and all paths may not be safe even though they are going in the right direction.
About the lighthouse analogy – what if the “map” is a rough incomplete outline designed to give us the general idea of what to look for, and some general information about what to do if your boat ends up in un-chartered (un-mapped) territory?
NOTE: Freaking out and standing still for a while is only useful in the short term before the wise captain goes back to what is known, radios fellow captains for general information/guidelines and gets back to re-charting their course.
Amy, take a look at the following post. I think you will like it. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3098&hilit=imagine+if
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