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I couldn’t help but think of Tom as I sat in priesthood yesterday. Teachings of Joseph Smith page 384: “No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet.” If any man has the testimony of Jesus he has the spirit of prophecy.
We are not just a church with a prophet, we are a prophetic church.
I agree that we are meant to be, and I think we are much more than many people realize – but much less than I hope we will be. I actually had those same thoughts during the priesthood lesson. I am glad I was introduced to this idea on this forum. Yes. I love this idea in mormonism. We often focus on the administrative position of President of the Church, who is a prophet, seer and revelator. But he is only one of millions of prophets, seers and revelators. I like how our religion contains strong concepts of personal and direct contact with deity. I think the other thing that makes this difficult is our expectations of what it means to be prophetic – mostly (in my case) as applied to others vs. to myself. Knowing how difficult it is to distinguish between confirmation bias and inspiration, dreams that are meaningful and ones that are merely dyspeptic, and the bias inherent in what questions we even ask, I find myself skeptical of the prophetic talents of others. My skepticism increases the more confident they are in their prophetic abilities, especially when it is likely that their prophesy or inspiration also matches their pre-existing perception. Yet, theoretically, if we are living a good life, serving others, being kind to animals, etc., our own pre-conceptions will probably coincide with what is correct (or godly) a higher percentage of the time, so we will receive fewer and fewer “rebukes” or “corrections” (that the D&C is so full of) or “provocative prophesies” from on high, and more and more “oh, yeah, that’s what I thought.” So, on a good day, this leads me to assume that those who are living very kind and good lives are generally right, but it really makes it clear to me that I must do likewise and be able to rely on my own prophetic gifts to confirm or deny what I hear.
Isn’t there a difference between revelation and prophecy? I think we can all have revelation.
Prophecy is to unfold truth in things that may not yet have happened. Prophets testify of the plan of salvation that is still unfolding.
I’m no sure if we can all have the gift of prophecy.
To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. (D&C 46:14).
And to others it is given to prophesy; (D&C 46:22).
Well, Heber13, I’m assuming you’re speaking about the spiritual sense, but I think I prophesy all the time at work. I have to make decisions as an engineer all the time. Obviously I try to make intelligent design decisions. Sometimes it is not easy for me to decide. But sometimes I will hear someone else’s design, and intuitively feel it won’t work. I can easily predict (often times with great accuracy) in what ways the design will fail. I don’t pretend that the spirit is guiding me or anything, but occasionally I have an intuitive feel for a design that I can’t always trace to a single illogical design choice. Is this the gift of prophecy? Does prophecy only exist with spiritual things?
I sometimes consider that prophecy is a product of our subconscious mind. I am not an expert or serious student of psychology, but from what I understand and see, our subconscious mind is enormously powerful. It is constantly making connections, taking care of life functions, associating pieces of information, and churning through all the “data input” we receive. Some of what we call that “gut feeling” is actually a methodical analysis, but it is not a conscious one on the surface of our mind. I don’t think this necessarily excludes the divine. That can be a part of it too — a spiritual connection to God and all life around us. I am not even convinced completely this happens in the brain. That is another whole topic though. Some people have a talent for churning this data more than others. We call those successful “prophets.” We all do this to some extent or another. I think prayer and meditation are tools to help tap into and develop the use of our vast processing power.
Good comment Valoel. I wouldn’t classify myself as a serious student of psychology either, but from the reading and researching I have done I would say we don’t give our subconscious mind near the credit it deserves. I think it is responsible for many things we do, and feel. Unfortunately, from the research I have done, I would also conclude that it’s not very good at determining truth. This is ultimately what led me to reject my own spiritual experiences as a reliable means of determining that the church is “true.” Sometimes our “gut” gets it right. But on the whole it is responsible for self-preservation, and if left unchecked by the cognitive thought processes, it can lead us to ridiculous conclusions. This is, how I personally believe that alien abductees, psychics, mediums, and others work. They use their subconscious minds to a great extent and don’t check them against the rational portions of their brain.
So use them both? I would reverse that and say the other emphasis is equally flawed — that of pure, conscious logic alone. It doesn’t have to be only one or the other. They are both a part of what makes us human.
Valoel wrote:So use them both?
Ah the great challenge of life.Valoel wrote:I would reverse that and say the other emphasis is equally flawed — that of pure, conscious logic alone. It doesn’t have to be only one or the other. They are both a part of what makes us human.
All I know is that in my life, my subconscious thoughts, which I thought were the “Spirit,” rarely turned out to be accurate. This is why I began doubting my orthodox testimony of the church. I could sit here all day and come up with reasons why I was “prompted by the Spirit” to do things that turned out to be pointless, but that exercise would also be pointless since I can’t reliably know that information. For me, in the aggregate, using my rational, cognitive, critical thinking skills has proven far more useful than following various “promptings.” That’s not to say that kind of thinking always gets it right.Don’t misunderstand, I don’t reject my subconscious thoughts, and intuitions. I have just learned to be more suspicious of them in general. The subconscious serves a purpose in life – although we’re just starting to figure it out – but I’m not sure it’s to convey inherent universal Truths from God. For me, I research everything as much as possible and then form an opinion, or make a preliminary decision. If I really don’t feel it is right, I will examine why, and redo my analysis. In all, I attempt to make decisions that are rationally sound, logically thought through, and which I still feel good about. However, I must confess, that the former influences the latter quite a bit.
I’m curious, why is using logic and rationality equally flawed in your view?
jmb275 wrote:I research everything as much as possible and then form an opinion, or make a preliminary decision. If I really don’t feel it is right, I will examine why, and redo my analysis.
Have you read Malcolm Gladwell’s book “Blink”?
An interesting cut on how sometimes what we see in the blink of an eye can be intuitively more accurate than months and months and mounds and mounds of analysis. If it “feels” wrong, there could be a good chance it is, maybe something you can’t describe in an analysis, but can be more valid than the intellectual reasoning allows.
Its an interesting book. I don’t agree with all of it, but Gladwell is a good writer.
I’ll take a look at it. It has been my personal experience that even when I feel something is “wrong” there is a valid reason, even if I haven’t discovered it yet, or can’t describe it just yet. Just because I haven’t discovered it, or “can’t describe it in analysis” doesn’t mean it was planted there by God, or is some sign of some external reality.
Of course it could be.
jmb, I wasn’t really suggesting that the gut feel comes from God, just mentioning the book which suggests (among other things) that research suggests the brain processes things sometimes faster than we can put into language and therefore picks up on some things and we get a gut feeling, but it is really based on micro expressions or body language or some small thing the brain picks up on.
I was agreeing with your point.
Heber13 wrote:jmb,
I wasn’t really suggesting that the gut feel comes from God, just mentioning the book which suggests (among other things) that research suggests the brain processes things sometimes faster than we can put into language and therefore picks up on some things and we get a gut feeling, but it is really based on micro expressions or body language or some small thing the brain picks up on.
I was agreeing with your point.
Ah, sorry, my misunderstanding. Thank you for clarifying. I was discussing a very similar topic in another thread with HiJolly, and probably was in the wrong frame of mind to understand what you were saying. I apologize for that.
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