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I had the hardest time sitting through our RS lesson on Sunday. It was given by a member of the RS presidency and the topic was ‘joy in womanhood and strengthening marriage and families’. Let’s start with the joy of womanhood. They started by making a list on the board of all the things that women are. Of course, this list was filled with things like mother, sister, friend, cook, driver, laundress, seamstress, etc. Everyone started commenting on how much work we do and how valuable that makes us. Then the teacher read off a list of qualities that all women have(according to GA’s and the proclamation). Things like being gentle, nurturing, loving, kind, a quiet strength. But what really got me riled was that after she read off this long list of wonderful attributes she said, “Men don’t have these. Men just aren’t like that. They can’t do the things we do. They don’t even want to have any of these qualities.” :wtf: I seriously had to sit there for a minute and ask myself if I really heard what I thought I just heard. What an incredibly sexist remark! I made a comment about how many men have plenty of these wonderful qualities and we would really be doing them a disservice by assuming that they don’t. I know my husband is very nurturing and kind. I’ve seen him be gentle with our children or with a stranger in need. I’ve seen many men with a quiet strength. She just kind of stared at me and moved on. Grr…My undergrad degree is in family studies and when they started talking about how the right way to make our families strong and happy is daily scripture study, prayer, temple attendance, yadda, yadda, yadda….I got a bit irritated. If we’re really going to be talking about strengthening families, lets talk about positive parenting techniques, or spending time together, or understanding the development of ourselves, our spouses and our children. Let’s talk about real resources outside the church that provide education on relationships, personal finances, or mental health. But no, these things are never mentioned in these discussions. Maybe they just want to talk about strengthening our families’ faith in and reliance on the church, but it’s never phrased that way.
Then the discussion moved to marriage. She said that marriage should not be hard work. If you’re having to work at your marriage, you’re doing something wrong. You should just love each other and always be happy. By this point, I literally wanted to scream and I probably should have just left the discussion, but instead I put in my two cents yet again. I teach family life education. Right now I teach a class on conflict resolution or management for married couples. I say, if you’re not working at your marriage, you’re doing something wrong. Work is not a bad thing. We should constantly be trying to improve our relationships with those we care about, married or not. Every good relationship takes effort.
I tried not to talk too much, just a quick comment. The bishop has asked me to teach the combined PH/RS lesson at the end of this month on marriage. He said he doesn’t want it to be filled with general conference quotes or scriptures, but based on real research about real issues that married couples have. We’re going to be talking about some of John Gottmann’s research and how to apply it to our relationships to really build more strength and intimacy.
Anyway, I’ll get down off my soapbox now. As one who has had to work at her marriage and who never really fit the mold of womanhood that they’re always describing at church, these lessons just always rub me the wrong way.
I’m sorry you had to sit through that, MayB. Almost everyone teaches what works for them or what they think is the ideal – in every lesson, not just marriage-related ones. Sometimes, the lessons are stupid and inaccurate for the vast majority of people. That sucks, but it is what it is.
On the flip side, it sounds like your Bishop understands – and that he is doing more than just passively understanding. I hope your lesson goes well – and I wish all members had a chance to have such a lesson.
I think I would have walked out of that lesson. I have been to relief society twice in the ten months that I’ve been married and both made me cringe-but nothing as bad as this. I feel like that entire lesson is absolutely ridiculous. Every single thing that was listed is not a gendered trait. Good for you for speaking up! I’m sure there were others in that class who really appreciated it.
It seems like the church is pushing extra hard to keep women in the traditional roles right now-I’m sure it’s to counter all the feminist movements going on.
MayB wrote:I had the hardest time sitting through our RS lesson on Sunday. It was given by a member of the RS presidency and the topic was ‘joy in womanhood and strengthening marriage and families’. Let’s start with the joy of womanhood.
They started by making a list on the board of all the things that women are. Of course, this list was filled with things like mother, sister, friend, cook, driver, laundress, seamstress, etc.Everyone started commenting on how much work we do and how valuable that makes us. Then the teacher read off a list of qualities that all women have(according to GA’s and the proclamation). Things like being gentle, nurturing, loving, kind, …what really got me riled was that after she read off this long list of wonderful attributes she said, “Men don’t have these. Men just aren’t like that. They can’t do the things we do. They don’t even want to have any of these qualities.“…What an incredibly sexist remark! My undergrad degree is in family studies and when they started talking about how the right way to make our families strong and happy is daily scripture study, prayer, temple attendance, yadda, yadda, yadda…Then the discussion moved to marriage. She said that
marriage should not be hard work. If you’re having to work at your marriage, you’re doing something wrong. You should just love each other and always be happy.By this point, I literally wanted to scream…I teach family life education. Right now I teach a class on conflict resolution or management for married couples…Every good relationship takes effort. I’m sorry to hear about your experience. It definitely irritates me to hear some of the ideas spread in the Church like the traditional Mormon ideal that gender roles should supposedly be similar to the way they were in the 1950s as if women were mostly only meant to be a wife, mother, and homemaker and they should be happy to just leave most of the serious education, work, leadership, decision making, etc. to the men. I also can’t stand some of the advice that clearly has nothing to do with the problem they are trying to solve or that could actually make things worse such as the idea that things like spending lots of time reading scriptures, praying, or going to the temple, will definitely make you happy, improve your marriage, etc. Some of the same common sources of dissatisfaction in marriage keep coming up over and over again, Mormon or not, precisely because it is typically not automatic for people to just make each other happy without some effort and having to learn and adjust to what their spouse needs or wants that could be very different from their own preferences. But in the Church it seems like there is a strong tendency for members to just tough it out and put on a happy face without ever doing much to try to fix some of the problems because they think they shouldn’t complain.
Don’t worry too much. When you give your lesson there will be people who will want to walk out because you aren’t using conference talks. We need more of this at church. We stay and show respect and hope they do the same. I usually leave priesthood a little pissed off and the teachers are some of my best friends at church. Sorry you had a bad lesson. I do believe that women can sometimes be the most militant in enforcing female gender roles. MayB wrote:My undergrad degree is in family studies and when they started talking about how the right way to make our families strong and happy is daily scripture study, prayer, temple attendance, yadda, yadda, yadda….I got a bit irritated. If we’re really going to be talking about strengthening families, lets talk about positive parenting techniques, or spending time together, or understanding the development of ourselves, our spouses and our children. Let’s talk about real resources outside the church that provide education on relationships, personal finances, or mental health. But no, these things are never mentioned in these discussions. Maybe they just want to talk about strengthening our families’ faith in and reliance on the church, but it’s never phrased that way.
I think there is a temptation to trumpet things that make people good Mormons and then suggest that these things also are a panacea for everything else that might trouble you. If you look at life from the perspective that being a good Mormon is the only way to heaven then that makes a lot of sense.
MayB wrote:Then the discussion moved to marriage. She said that marriage should not be hard work. If you’re having to work at your marriage, you’re doing something wrong. You should just love each other and always be happy. By this point, I literally wanted to scream and I probably should have just left the discussion, but instead I put in my two cents yet again. I teach family life education. Right now I teach a class on conflict resolution or management for married couples. I say, if you’re not working at your marriage, you’re doing something wrong. Work is not a bad thing. We should constantly be trying to improve our relationships with those we care about, married or not. Every good relationship takes effort.
This is not confined to the LDS church. Ben Affleck in an award acceptance speech thanked his wife Jennifer Garner all the work she puts into their marriage. His comments ignited speculation that their marriage was in trouble. This can be a touchy issue. It is ok to say that our marriage isn’t perfect. It is not ok to say that our marriage has problems, weaknesses, or flaws. To talk about love as something other than storybook romance might signal to some that you are not “in-love” with your spouse.
MayB wrote:I tried not to talk too much, just a quick comment. The bishop has asked me to teach the combined PH/RS lesson at the end of this month on marriage. He said he doesn’t want it to be filled with general conference quotes or scriptures, but based on real research about real issues that married couples have. We’re going to be talking about some of John Gottmann’s research and how to apply it to our relationships to really build more strength and intimacy.
Not long ago our ward RS did an activity where the guest speaker (a male stake leader) was going to talk about the 5 love languages. DW and I were horrified and amused to find that the guest speaker had never read the book and so quickly degenerated to talking about stereotypical gender roles and quoting GA’s about the importance of marriage etc. Why would this male leader be asked to talk in an RS activity on a subject that he had no familiarity with???
Lately I have been going to work right after SM. I hope when my work schedule changes that I’ll have good SS teachers. I’m not very good at biting my tongue.
:shh: :silent: The other thread going now about how to request change in the church focuses a lot on social media. I agree that’s huge, but we’re a church of endless talks and LESSONS. Taught by teachers who can have just as big an impact. No pressure on your 5th Sunday! On the going to the temple part, last time my wife and I went she asked me what spiritual insights I got when we were leaving, and when I said the spirit told me I should worry less about what people think about my bicycle riding (it’s my stress outlet and her mother is often critical as men aren’t supposed to have outlets other than gardening). She flew into tears and it was a horrible afternoon. Apparently she got a different revelation. So there is definitely not a, “just do this” thing that works for everyone I’m afraid. Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
Sounds like amateur hour in RS! This is what iPads are made for. I always try to add contrasting viewpoints to lessons like this, because you can be guaranteed 80% of the class is getting nothing out of it, whether they agree or not. Good grief. Ray’s right, people teach the things that matter to them. We all do. Unfortunately the ones who have some sense very rarely seem to get the floor. I’m really delighted that your Bishop sees the value in some ‘real’ instruction on families. My wife and I have a wonderful relationship and I couldn’t imagine life without her. But we have both had to work very hard on our relationship. Keep speaking up. When we do it we give other people space to think, even if they don’t speak up too.
It would be great to get some ‘alternative’ family quotes added to the quotes thread from LDS sources.
For your lesson, I’d encourage you to plan what you want to say and then find LDS quotes (books/manuals/gen conf) to make that point first (even if you have to snip around the quotes a little!).
If you only present what the ‘secular world’ thinks then you could get some push back. If instead you make exactly the same point but from a source they trust you then have license to add a little more into it. I managed to quote Dumbledore in a recent talk and got no complaints, but I quotes 3-4 church authorities first to build up the point. (Copy in the ‘Spiritul’ forum).
I’ll keep my eye out for good family quotes.
This is a simple case of generalizing one’s own experience. I wouldn’t categorize my relationship with my wife as one that I have ever had to “work at”. It’s very easy to project that outward and say that successful couples should [insert what has made my marriage successful]. The fact is that it isn’t the same for everyone… not even close. There are many factors that make up who we are and how we see life. Being male or female is a big factor. Being the first child, or the last child or the only child is a big factor. Being from the city or country is a big factor. Being good looking or otherwise is a factor. Race is a factor. Religion is a factor. Economics is a factor. Nationality is a factor. Ultimately, we are all individuals, who are the way we are due to a confluence of all kinds of factors, but to paint individuals a certain way because they belong to any one of the above groups is missing out on the wonder of humanity. In fact, there is tremendous value in our individuality.
I’m so glad I wasn’t in your RS class that day! Gender roles are probably my biggest pet peeve ever. I also do not fit too well in those lists they claim all women fit into. It makes me wonder if that were true why did God bother giving women intelligence if we’re just all suppose to be exactly the same like pre-programmed robots? I just hate that idea. Plus, as you pointed out MayB, plenty of men have those qualities, including the ultimate example for men and women–Jesus Christ. I figure if we are okay to have one person to emulate, the same for women and men, then we can’t be too different. I was reading recently (was it on this forum?) about the ying/yang belief of how we all have a feminine side and a masculine side. I like that. What does not having to work hard on your marriage and reinforcing sexist stereotypes have to do with Jesus, The Book of Mormon, The Bible, the Sacrament, Joseph Smith etc… ? I wish we would talk about those things on Sunday instead of unnecessary polarizing rhetoric. However,I should be fair. The speaker was not speaking for The Church. She was speaking for herself and we all have the tendency to say stupid things.
Part of me wonders how individuals with marriage difficulties felt about her talk? I am not married, but I imagine many marriages require hard work. The talk might come off demeaning to couples who are working hard on their marriage.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:It definitely irritates me to hear some of the ideas spread in the Church like the traditional Mormon ideal that gender roles should supposedly be similar to the way they were in the 1950s as if women were mostly only meant to be a wife, mother, and homemaker and they should be happy to just leave most of the serious education, work, leadership, decision making, etc. to the men
YES! Drives me crazy because I tried so hard for years to fit this mold that they told me should make me happy and I was miserable.
Roy wrote:I do believe that women can sometimes be the most militant in enforcing female gender roles.
So true. I found this very evident during the wear pants to church day campaign. I didn’t wear pants that day, but since then I have three or four times. One Sunday, when I was not wearing pants, a different RS teacher mentioned how it makes her so sad to see so many women not embracing their divinity and wanting to do things like wearing pants to church to be more like the men. Ugh.
Also, Roy, I loved what Ben Affleck said about his marriage. Like others mentioned, for some people the marriage relationship may come very easily for them. But for many others, there is definite work involved. When did working at something become a negative thing? Any relationship takes some effort to maintain and grow, but if we call that effort ‘work’, somehow everyone thinks that there is something very wrong. For the first five or six years of my marriage, almost every single day felt like work. We got married young and we’re opposites in a lot of ways. We also were trying to live up to the high expectations placed on us by my husband’s super righteous parents. I could write a very lengthy post about how my mother-in-law tore me down and nearly destroyed our relationship with her “support” and “guidance”. We finally realized that reading scriptures daily, attending the temple weekly, and doing our HT and VT and fulfilling our callings weren’t bringing us closer together and judging each other by the standards that the church said we should find in a temple-worthy spouse, male or female, was causing more hurt to our relationship. I’m happy to report though that now my husband and I have a fabulous relationship! We get along great. We value each others’ different opinions. We understand each other and we have a lot of fun together. Our love is stronger than I ever thought it could be.
Mackay11, I do plan to mix in some quotes from GA’s in my 5th Sunday lesson so as not to rock any boats too much or anything. I’m excited and a bit terrified at the same time to teach this class. I usually teach couples who want to learn something that will benefit their relationship and have sought out that education. Teaching an audience with such a wide range of situations and experiences as there are in my ward will be interesting. My husband and I gave talks a few months ago and my topic was “Strengthening Marriage and Being the Ideal Partner”. We were both honest in our talks about our marriage and how we’ve had to work hard for what we have and that trying to be an ideal partner for your spouse or expecting them to be your ideal can sometimes be damaging. We got great responses from most of the ward, but there were a few of the elderly couples who didn’t care for our talks much. I guess we’ll just have to see.
On Own Now wrote:This is a simple case of generalizing one’s own experience. I wouldn’t categorize my relationship with my wife as one that I have ever had to “work at”. It’s very easy to project that outward and say that successful couples should [insert what has made my marriage successful]. The fact is that it isn’t the same for everyone… not even close.
I think this is exactly what happened. Perhaps, for her, marriage has been easy and always very rewarding and maybe, for her, the traditional gender roles are fulfilling and all she ever wants from life. I guess I just wish that our teachers in church settings would consider the wide range of experiences and situations of their audience.
AngryMormon wrote:What does not having to work hard on your marriage and reinforcing sexist stereotypes have to do with Jesus, The Book of Mormon, The Bible, the Sacrament, Joseph Smith etc… ? I wish we would talk about those things on Sunday instead of unnecessary polarizing rhetoric.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like most of the lessons lately focus on things like tithing, temple attendance, family, marriage, WoW, etc. I’d love to hear more lessons on emulating Christ with more scripture reading and less conference talk reading.
MayB wrote:maybe, for her, the traditional gender roles are fulfilling and all she ever wants from life
MayB… I’m going to pick on your wording just a little here. I don’t believe you meant it the way you said it, based on the rest of your post. In fact, I’ve really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread. But, I think it’s a good opportunity to talk about how to make our attitudes have value in the Church.I think it’s really important not to take sides… not to assume that the way we do something is the
rightway. That’s what started this thread out… somebody else talking that way. It’s crucial for us, since we represent somewhat of a dissenting voice to the norms of the Church, to talk in terms that validate individual choice and diversity. Saying things like “all she wants from life” is just switching sides without expanding the tent. I’ve heard that exact same phrase used pejoratively against women who stay at home with the kids and women who seek a career. My wife was a stay-at-home mom for several years while our kids were young. I know very liberal non-LDS people that have done this same thing. There is nothing wrong or second-class about it. It’s just as valid as having the dad stay at home or having both parents work and the kids in daycare or having both adults work and having no kids. If I could go back to one time in my life and live there for the rest of time, I’d pick that time when we had all our young kids at home, and before my wife went to work outside the home. It was a tough time in a lot of ways, but it was a very rewarding time. I know my wife feels the same way, because she has told me so. People who choose one lifestyle over another are not superior or inferior. It’s their choice and their life. If it works for them, great. It probably will work for others as well. The purpose for expanding the tent is to include others previously kept out, not to kick out the ones already in it. The Church culture of assuming one and only one lifestyle is the ideal is what is irksome. We need to strive FOR diversity, not AGAINST one particular lifestyle.
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