Our ward’s alternative to lesson 24 on apostasy

[Anonymous]

Last week, one of our Gospel Doctrine teachers approached me about helping out with lesson 24. She said that when she read it, she found it offensive. (I cheered inside.) It tells whitewashed, self-justifying versions of how Thomas B. Marsh, Simonds Ryder and Frazier Eaton apostatized. She said that since I didn’t get a lot of time in April’s 5th Sunday lesson to talk about faith crises, she wanted to give me some more.

Here’s how it went down, to the best of my recollection and according to my notes.

Our Ward’s Alternative to Lesson 24: Be Not Deceived, but Continue in Steadfastness

[On the whiteboard:]

Quote:

How do we approach people who have left the church?

How do we deal with challenges to our faith and other difficult things?

A pint of cream

A misspelled name

No available seating at the Kirtland Temple dedication

[Gospel Doctrine teacher:] What do these three things [referring to “A pint of cream” and so on] have in common?

[Class member:] They all deal with somewhat humorous stories about someone in the early days of the Church who apostatized.

[Gospel Doctrine teacher:] That’s right. Here’s something else they have in common: they’re all wrong. Every story is much more complicated than that someone took offense at one of these things.

[Another class member:] They’re just “the straw the broke the camel’s back.”

[Gospel Doctrine teacher affirms, then turns the time over to a guest teacher: me.]

[Me:] During the 5th Sunday lesson in April, I told you that my brother has resigned from the Church and helps people leave. I want to give you an idea of how a faithful member gets to that point.

Here’s why I’m telling you my brother’s story. When someone does things that are hard for us to understand or that hurt us, we tend to oversimplify their reasons to the point where we can’t understand them, can’t reconcile with them, can’t see our own part in it, and often falsely accuse them. I want to use my brother’s story to help us get past that. I want to enable some introspection and self-reflection.

We come to church expecting to have our faith strengthened. I’ll be honest with you: my part of the lesson might not do that; in fact, it might challenge your faith. In return, I hope to help you better understand those who leave. I hope for an increase of love.

While I’m telling you his story, it’ll be tempting to analyze it for ways he acted wrongly. I ask that you withhold judgment for now and just try to understand.

I’ll start near the end: the November 2015 policy update. Shortly after this policy update, my brother resigned from the Church. Who knows what I’m referring to?

[About 4 out of 40 class members raise hands.]

Okay, let me tell you about it. In early November 2015 – I can’t remember the exact date, but it was early November – the Church rolled out an update to Handbook 1, the handbook of instructions for bishops and stake presidents. It said that any member who enters into a same-sex marriage is required to be subject to a disciplinary council. It also said that children of same-sex parents can’t be baptized until they’re 18, and first have to disavow same-sex marriage altogether.

My brother resigned after this policy change. Who can guess how my parents took the news?

[Some murmuring of answers.]

Yes, that’s right. They took it very poorly. My mother responded with a list of the standard accusations [writing them on the board]: lazy, forgot spiritual experiences, wanted to sin, offended.

[Class member:] Being deceived is also a standard one.

[Me:] That was probably one of them. I think she made seven accusations, none of which were true. Why would she react like this? [Short silence.] How does it feel when a child leaves the Church?

[Some class members seem to speak with authority on the subject. Main ideas: self-blame, hurt, rejection.]

I think those are all true of my parents. To be honest, I haven’t asked them yet because it’s still so raw for them. And there’s something more when a child doesn’t just leave, but resigns: it’s understood to cancel all sealing blessings, so a lot of people take it as a rejection of family.

Really, it’s hard on us when anybody leaves, whether they’re related to us or not. I think our identities are bound so tightly to the Church that when someone rejects it, it feels like a rejection of us.

Now, I think there’s at least one other reason my mother reacted this way. The accusations she made are the reasons we’re taught in church that someone leaves. Today’s intended lesson is a case in point: it teaches that people leave because they’re offended. She responded with these accusations because they’re what she knows.

But there’s always more to the story whenever someone leaves. What we see is just the tip of a huge iceberg.

We’ve been learning about some of the more challenging aspects of Church history this year in Gospel Doctrine. My brother learned about them on his own, over a decade ago. He also learned how to put tough history in context and how to leave room for faith. He was the person in his ward that people went to when they had questions and doubts about Church history, and he taught them the same things. He was well-placed to do it as a member of the Elders’ Quorum presidency. His testimony wasn’t based on proof of the restoration, but on spiritual witnesses of it.

Here’s a huge word. Who knows what epistemology is?

[Class member:] The study of truth.

[Me:] Right, the study of truth, how we know it, and even what it means to know something. I don’t know why because he hasn’t told me – it could be for an intensely personal reason – my brother started investigating truth by spiritual witness. He tells me that this involved a lot of data, spreadsheets, and statistical analysis. I guess in my family, this is just how we roll. He didn’t expect proof that a spiritual witness communicates truth, just statistical significance. He wanted badly to find it, but he didn’t. He didn’t find the statistical significance he was looking for.

When he could no longer trust a spiritual witness, he lost faith in the restoration; actually, pretty much everything about the Church. I want to reiterate what I said in April that this feels like: it feels like losing a close family member. It’s like discovering that your father has died, but you can’t tell anyone for fear that your family will disown you. But he kept attending, stayed active, while in this state. He stayed for family, and because he still believed that the Church does more good than harm. And he felt like he could help others in his situation. Again, he was well-placed in the Elders’ Quorum presidency to carry out this kind of ministry.

I think my brother had gay and lesbian friends before this. I’m sure he met more. It turns out that the LGBT population is overrepresented among people who experience a faith crisis. They’re 5% to 15% of the general population, and 4 out of 5 end up leaving the Church. It seems to come down to choosing between loyalty to themselves and loyalty to the Church – and most of them choose loyalty to themselves. I think it was around this time that he started to think that the Church might do more harm than good.

At some point before November 2015, he was due for a temple recommend renewal. In the interview with his bishop, he did something… inadvisable, I guess. He challenged his bishop on the meaning of the question about associating with apostates. I think he might have been involved with an LGBT support group by this point, but I don’t know for sure. At any rate, he couldn’t renew his temple recommend even though he was worthy.

He had a child’s baptism and confirmation coming up. If I remember right, the policy on whether someone can officiate in these ordinances is that for baptism, it’s up to the bishop, and for confirmation it’s still up to the bishop, but bishops are strongly advised that men who don’t qualify for a temple recommend not be allowed. He felt sidelined and ostracized, and I think it was around this time that he stopped attending church.

[Now on the whiteboard (chronological from bottom to top):]

Quote:

November 2015 Policy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Power struggle

LGBT issues

Faith crisis

Epistemology

Church history

When the November policy update came out, he saw the pain it put his gay and lesbian friends through when it dashed their hopes and sent the message that the Church would never accept them as they are. He was convinced that the Church does more harm than good. He was angry and he didn’t want to be seen as endorsing the Church’s policies in any way, so he resigned.

[Class member:] I just want to say that I stand with the brethren 100% on the same-sex marriage policy.

[Me:] Okay.

[Another class member talks at length about how he struggles with the same-sex marriage policy, especially how it was rolled out.]

Thanks for sharing that. So you understand a bit about where my brother is coming from. That’s great, because we need to understand each other better.

Now, here’s what I think is a tough question. Did my brother do anything wrong? I mean, he’s not perfect, and I’ve got a good idea of his flaws. He’s usually overconfident in his conclusions. He’s always had a hard time with authority. He’s extremely intelligent, and gets impatient with people he thinks don’t see things as clearly as he does. But did he do anything wrong?

[Class member:] Doubts turn off your connection to the Spirit, so of course you won’t find significance with scientific testing, which requires some amount of doubt, and not faith. Maybe if he could see this he’d see how his experiments didn’t mean what he thought.

[Me:] That’s an interesting idea. I don’t know if that would convince him to come back, though. He says now that doubt is a form of humility. I honestly can’t say that he’s wrong about that.

[Another class member:] I think that, at some level, people stop believing because they don’t want to believe. [He said this in more words, but this is the gist.]

[Me:] I think that does happen, but I’ve got to defend my brother on this one. When he was studying epistemology, before his faith crisis, he wanted very badly to believe.

[A few class members talk about basic spiritual self-care like prayer and scripture study, and how people who leave usually stop doing it.]

I’ve read hundreds of stories by people who have left, and this doesn’t figure into any of them.

[Class member:] Of course they wouldn’t. They don’t see it as a cause.

[Me:] That’s right, they wouldn’t identify it as a cause. On the other hand, we weren’t watching them 24/7, so we don’t really know whether they neglected basic spiritual self-care.

[Bishopric member:] I think it’s important to remember that people who leave follow very different trajectories. This is your brother’s experience, but not everybody’s. There’s not just one thing that, if people do it, will keep them in the Church.

[Me:] Thank you, yes. People are complicated, and everyone’s story is so different.

[Another class member talks about how we don’t know why the Lord lets bad things happen. I affirm.]

[Another class member:] It’s sort of like a job, isn’t it? Everywhere you could work has little niggles about it, things you don’t like. If there are enough of them, you start to look for faults, for other little niggles, and you start looking for reasons to leave. These things can just build up.

[Me:] Yes, they can. I think that describes most people who experience a faith crisis. There are a lot of little things that go into it. And I think by this time [pointing at “Power struggle”] my brother might have been looking for a reason to leave. But again, I have to defend him. The November policy was not a little thing. He saw this make some of his friends suicidal.

[Some hands are still up.]

I really wish we could keep talking about this, but we don’t have a lot of time left, and we have to get to the most important part: introspection.

It’s easy to put all the blame on the person who leaves, but life doesn’t work like that. One of reasons I told you my brother’s story is so we can analyze what we do wrong.

My brother’s bishop reacted poorly to being challenged. If he had known it would cause a power struggle, he might not have done that.

[Someone comments on how bishops are all different, and don’t act for the whole church.]

Yes! Bishops are people, too. Their stories are complicated. And no, they don’t represent the whole church.

My brother’s ward is in Idaho. It’s rural, conservative, and homophobic, which is one big reason why gay and lesbian people in his area have such an awful time. This is partly the Church’s doing. In the past, we’ve taught that homosexuality is a choice or is the result of sin, and most of his ward still believes that.

Here’s another thing we’ve done wrong. We still teach that these are the only reasons people leave the Church. The intended lesson for today talks about Thomas B. Marsh leaving over a pint of cream. That’s not what happened; it’s a lot more complicated than that. But we keep teaching it anyway. These are people, not cartoons!

Here’s another one. We’ve taught a whitewashed and oversimplified version our history to the point of dishonesty, and we’ve done it for decades after being shown the truth. Again, today’s intended lesson is a case in point.

Now, I really can’t call it introspection unless I look honestly at myself. Here’s something I did wrong: before I knew better, my explanation for why my brother left was that he was using LGBT issues to fight a proxy war against the Church over some unresolved sin. Knowing more of the story, I still have to admit that it might be true. But even if it is, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s just not that simple. It’s never that simple.

Someone said earlier that we don’t know why the Lord lets certain things happen. I don’t know why my brother experienced this. What I can say, though, is that in getting to know him better, I see that he’s become a more caring, understanding, empathetic person. He’s a better man. Maybe that’s why. Maybe he couldn’t have grown like that without experiencing what he did.

Also, in getting to know him better, I’ve come to know him for the good person he is instead of the cartoon I thought he was. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

[Class members:] Amen.

[Gospel Doctrine teacher followed up with some very wise words about giving people the benefit of the doubt and being patient with others. I wish I could remember more of it.]

[Anonymous]

This is amazing. I would love to get to a point where we believe in what we are doing and we also acknowledge that people that do other things also believe in what they are doing. Hard to do in a church environment of hyperbole and exclusive truth claims … but looks like you pulled it off.

[Anonymous]

I know this will be asked, so: how was this teaching received? Very well. Nothing negative yet. I got a lot of in-person thank-yous and one nice email. A friend of mine gave me a hug and said he loved it because it was raw, real, direct, and unflinching about things we’ve done wrong. Someone else told me it was memorable.

I love turning the light switches on in people’s heads.

I’m sure some class members were very uncomfortable. (I’m thinking specifically about that other friend of mine who said he supports the brethren 100%.) Good. I want them to sit with it for a while, and ponder the fact that so many other people got so much out of trying to understand apostates.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

This is amazing. I would love to get to a point where we believe in what we are doing and we also acknowledge that people that do other things also believe in what they are doing. Hard to do in a church environment of hyperbole and exclusive truth claims … but looks like you pulled it off.

Thanks!

I’m very aware that one of the reasons I could pull it off is demographics. There are a lot of academics, Air Force officers, and professionals of all kinds in my ward. They’re mostly the kind of people who love thinking for themselves. Many of the more established members have family who have left. I think a lot of them are dissatisfied with the current narratives about why people leave, and welcome greater understanding even though it challenges their beliefs.

There’s a good chance this would have gone south quickly in the ward next to us. My brother’s ward would have taken up torches and pitchforks. It makes me a little sad that the members who need it most probably wouldn’t listen.

ETA: It also helps to have bishopric support. The counselor who spoke up is the one I worked with on the HT/VT changes to minister to members who experience faith crises. And his wife is the Gospel Doctrine teacher who approached me.

[Anonymous]

Wow – you got to cover so much. This season is so interesting. So bi-polar and aching. I was in Boise just a couple weeks ago on a Sunday. It was open mic day. Some of the verbal outpourings were painful to listen to. An 11 year old girl who takes it upon herself to write a monthly talk and give it ever F & T meeting. No one blinks. She probably gets extra hugs for doing it. She began her piece, “Last month I spoke to you about the evils of pornography. Today I am going to talk to you about the music you listen to.” She held the pulpit for 10 minutes as she diatribed about the horrors of pop music. I sat there seething. Someone needed to rescue this girl, but it’s a corridor group, they won’t see it.

I’ve been out of town a lot recently I am bummed that I missed my wards lesson on this. I am sure I would have said something. To me it’s one of the ugliest chapters in our story telling. Brother Marsh suffered far beyond what anyone should suffer for being human. I truly believe if there is a heaven after this, we Mormons are going to need to line up and apologize to Brother Marsh for the decades of judgement we have heaped upon him. He even came back but that didn’t serve him well either. W.W. Phelps got off far better than he did. We still sing his hymns. Completely forgetting what side he joined for a while.

I am so glad you got a shot at the lesson. I love it. Thanks for sharing it here.

[Anonymous]

I didn’t read all of it, but I was amazed that our lesson today was the same topic, and that the teacher listed the three things — pint of cream, misspelled name and no seating. I had to sit on my hands the whole time and block my thoughts from thinking. I could have stood up and refuted most of what everyone said.

I personally don’t believe off the bat that those three things tell the whole story. There were so many other objectionable statements, it was all I could do to be quiet and say nothing. I am surprised at how you were able to talk about your brother leaving over the November policy. I wish there was a readers digest version of main ideas…

Overall, it sounds like you knocked orthodoxy out of the part and hopefully, you got away with it…and maybe even achieved the effect of widespread appreciation from the rest of the class. I find that happens to me now and then when I take “The Road Less Traveled” in my lessons.

SD

[Anonymous]

I love this. And thanks so much for sharing it all in detail that gives the feel for how it went in class. I would have loved to be there.

Quote:

Today’s intended lesson is a case in point: it teaches that people leave because they’re offended. She responded with these accusations because they’re what she knows

This is really a great point…it points at how lazy we get as church members with quick diagnosis and quick simplistic reasons for things and walk away feeling affirming our own feelings…not really caring about what others are feeling. There is too much sympathy, and not enough empathy.

Today in church…we are not having a person lead the discussion as well as you did. Our talks are more about LGBT issues and how we cannot apologize for what we know to be true, even if it offends others or the world. It falls too quickly to “us vs them” and unloving as people don’t really have time to flush out these thoughts. I guess good we are talking about tough topics, but not doing well enough at it…it sounds too much about guards up and hearts closed.

I would add that is one of my other frustrations at church…soo many announcements and things and when it comes to diggin into a topic to really get past the white washed stuff…there is not time…then we go home and do it again next week.

I wish I was at your class. Thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Outstanding. I wish it were more the norm.

We have this lesson next week. I have written down the following in preparation for this, but still mulling over how to bring it up. My assumption is that they will start with the 3 topics of “cream of milk, seat at the temple, and misspelled name”.

Quote:

They are incorrect or at least incomplete stories of why people leave the church

I mentioned one of these in High Priests a few months ago. In history it is always better to go with quotes from the source, not quotes decades later. In his own words Thomas B. Marsh said he left over the violence that Mormons were perpetrating to non-Mormons. (Don’t even talk about Lucinda Harris that was married to George Harris and also to Joseph Smith.)

Frazier Eaton donated $20K to Kirtland temple, but didn’t get a seat to the dedication. Stayed a member and even 4 years later was put on the High Counsel by Hyrum Smith. He may have been miffed about the dedication of the temple, but he didn’t leave the church!

Symonds Ryder wasn’t upset about his name misspelled. He did go on the mission, but the main reason he returned early and eventually left the church was he was worried about losing his property to the united order. So I can’t throw a stone at him as I can’t say if today I was told to turn all of my possessions over to the church that I could do it.

Elder Ballard said that we need to study these out. I am flabbergasted that these are still in a 2017 church manual. We have to do better as a church.

[Anonymous]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Anonymous]

Wow, wish I could have been there and I wish this could happen in every ward. Great job!

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Wow, wish I could have been there and I wish this could happen in every ward. Great job!

I think it is evidence that it CAN happen in every ward, and that the church is more open to these kinds of approaches to things than in the past.

I mean…it wasn’t just Reuben…the GD teacher was pushing for that too…and the leaders (bishopric, etc) may have had some comments more conservative…but no one shut it down or turned off the mic (sort of speak). They let the discussion happen.

I am guessing 10 years ago…we would have felt there was no place in church for such comments with serious action (people leaving, bishop calling Reuben into the office about teaching anti doctrine, black-balling Reuben from speaking in church, etc).

People may not be 100% on board, and there are different opinions…but they are letting the discussion happen at church…and there are several people who understand why it is.

While I am not comfortable with things in the church…I do sometimes pause and reflect on the progress of change. Even if too small or too little…it is something to hang some hope and realize we can StayLDS and have a voice and impact others if our heart is in the right place.

Reuben is my new hero. He wins the thread this week! :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Heber wrote – Reuben is my new hero. He wins the thread this week! :thumbup:

In all seriousness can we set up a thread for this. It is so easy to forget the successes. I am not computer savvy enough but some one is. Nibbler? Light grows as we acknowledge and shine it.

This lesson was really a major win for the church and Reuben.

[Anonymous]

Well we had our lesson 24 yesterday. This week’s teacher is great and I was debating sending her an email that gently nudged her not to use these trite stories.

It didn’t focus on these stories as the central part of the lesson, but they were used as examples. When the example of Thomas Marsh was mentioned (and it seemed she was incorrectly saying it was Emma that was getting the crappy cream), I did raise my hand and kind of give some support for not being offended and it is natural for us to do that, then also mentioned that in studying this that it was more complicated and there certainly were other significant issues that drove him away for awhile. The Frazier Eaton story at a very high level was given and I raised my hand and mentioned, “but just a few years later he was put on the High Council, so it seems he did get over his offense – which I have to admit if I had given $20K to a building fund and then wasn’t even able to enter the dedication that I wouldn’t be a happy camper.”

I don’t think I was trying to really force everyone to realize these stories have some significant issues. I think I am just trying to make sure people know there are issues and let others that might be questioning know someone else “knows” the issues. I think my recommend isn’t going to be yanked over this.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

Wow, wish I could have been there and I wish this could happen in every ward. Great job!

I think it is evidence that it CAN happen in every ward, and that the church is more open to these kinds of approaches to things than in the past.

I believe it can in every ward but I also won’t be holding my breath until it happens in mine. We’re a loooooooooooooong way out from having a discussion like this in my ward. Or maybe we’re only one “right person called to be the teacher” away from this happening. Who knows?

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Heber13 wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

Wow, wish I could have been there and I wish this could happen in every ward. Great job!

I think it is evidence that it CAN happen in every ward, and that the church is more open to these kinds of approaches to things than in the past.

I believe it can in every ward but I also won’t be holding my breath until it happens in mine. We’re a loooooooooooooong way out from having a discussion like this in my ward. Or maybe we’re only one “right person called to be the teacher” away from this happening. Who knows?

Sometimes…it takes one “right” family to move in, and the dynamics of the ward change…or the leadership roulette thing can change it. But…you are right…in some wards…that kind of talk is really not even appreciated.

[Author]

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