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Heber13 wrote:
in some wards…that kind of talk is really not even appreciated.
Yes. On the Sunday we had that lesson I spoke up. Nothing serious or evil but I learned a few things:
1) Don’t speak during Sunday School. That was my principle takeaway.
2) Maybe it’s best to go home after SM.
nibbler wrote:
Heber13 wrote:
in some wards…that kind of talk is really not even appreciated.
Yes. On the Sunday we had that lesson I spoke up. Nothing serious or evil but I learned a few things:
1) Don’t speak during Sunday School. That was my principle takeaway.
2) Maybe it’s best to go home after SM.
I honestly think I can get away with it because of the callings I have been in (bishopric a few times, EQP, HPGL, etc.), I raise my hand for most every service project, and that in general I am not very abrasive with folks (and before hawkgrrrl reminds me, I am a guy also – at least the last time I checked). I do realize not everyone else has that. That is part of what motivates me to go ahead and speak up a bit.
The teacher and I get along really well and have worked together on many things for over a decade. I don’t think it hurt our relationship. In fact I plan on talking with her and explaining a bit why I mentioned what I did. I will relate it to the possibility of her losing one of her kids from the gospel when they learn these often mentioned stories are found to be false.
Heber13 wrote:
Sometimes…it takes one “right” family to move in, and the dynamics of the ward change…or the leadership roulette thing can change it. But…you are right…in some wards…that kind of talk is really not even appreciated.
This is basically what happened in my ward.
The bishop’s family moved in a few years ago. He has a PhD, and chose an academic and a near-academic as counselors. Both also moved in within the past few years. All three have intuitive personality types (i.e. the kind that need their mental models of the world to be consistent) and are well-studied. All three are well aware of Church history issues and know people who have left. They can tell something needs to change. The SS teacher is married to one of the counselors and has siblings who have left. And then we moved in.
I know who a couple of the previous bishops are. One of them might have allowed this, but not with same the directness.
Basically, the stars aligned. The more accurately the Church teaches its history, the more often it’ll happen, though. And the more it happens in wards with high turnover like ours, the more it’ll happen elsewhere. The acceleration will probably still be glacial, though.
Reuben wrote:
The acceleration will probably still be glacial, though.
Like trying to watch paint dry…excruciatingly slow.
The other difficult thing is when you don’t have that dynamic in the ward, there isn’t a whole lot you can do about it. Assigning congregations by geography just presents certain “growing opportunities” to deal with what you’re dealt in that area.
But it can happen…and sometimes takes a brave few steps to test the waters, and can be surprising sometimes what you find.
Quote:This is your brother’s experience, but not everybody’s.
This is one of the most common ways to negate any argument these days and not just in the church. “That’s just one person’s opinion” is the usual form… unfortunately many people share the same experiences.
I think you are far more diplomatic than me.
SamBee wrote:
Quote:This is your brother’s experience, but not everybody’s.
This is one of the most common ways to negate any argument these days and not just in the church. “That’s just one person’s opinion” is the usual form… unfortunately many people share the same experiences.
I think you are far more diplomatic than me.
I might have related this in a way that didn’t preserve his intent as well as what he actually said. At the time, he seemed to be steering the conversation away from hyperfocusing on the idea that there’s a simple formula that keeps members believing. He diplomatically but directly spoke against that idea.
Frankly, I was glad for the help. I didn’t feel like I could contradict the class too many times in a row (I didn’t have direct evidence that my brother had practiced sufficient spiritual self-care anyway), and the class appeared to feel strongly about it. I imagine he could tell that they were leading themselves into some wrong ideas and that he was in a much better position to correct them than I was.
Reuben wrote:
I didn’t feel like I could contradict the class too many times in a row
…just curious…but do you feel you have some social capital built up in your ward that you can choose to spend some at certain times without negative repercussions?
If so (because it sounds like you do)…how do you think you got that, and how long did it take you?
Heber13 wrote:
Reuben wrote:
I didn’t feel like I could contradict the class too many times in a row
…just curious…but do you feel you have some social capital built up in your ward that you can choose to spend some at certain times without negative repercussions?
If so (because it sounds like you do)…how do you think you got that, and how long did it take you?
About a year, from being the YM president, volunteering to play piano, giving a great talk on hope, recently conducting the choir (this might happen more often now – can’t complain), doing home teaching, and bring friendly. My wife’s capital helps, too. Basically, by doing the Mormon things.
Most members can accept unorthodoxy (non-traditional beliefs and views) quite well, with two conditions: 1) a lack of direct attack (meaning tact and care and compassion); 2) orthopraxy (traditional behavior, including language). Love and shared actions build social capital quite rapidly, especially for people who can spaek in group-ese (Mormon-speak).
We talked about how having discussions like these can hinge on a few individuals being in key positions in a ward. I feel the opposite is true. Discussions like these can be suppressed by a few individuals in key positions. My experience has been that social capital doesn’t matter as much as whether there’s an old guard alpha in the class that has held (or holds) the right calling. They often bully the discussion to ensure it returns to the narratives they grew up with.
I think you both have good points Ray and Nibbler. I have sometimes wondered if it is my own street cred that allows me to get away with saying some of the things I say (I brought up the idea that Abraham may have failed the test this past Sunday) or if it’s really just the way it’s said. On the other hand, I know when to hold ’em and I know when to fold ’em (and when to walk away and when to run) – if certain people are or are not present I am more likely to either speak up or not. If I am the lone free thinker (which sometimes happens) in a room dominated by vocal old guards (we recently got a new old guard in the ward) I am much more likely to keep my mouth shut while if I recognize allies who will jump on the wagon (or whose wagon I will jump on) I am much more likely to speak up. Actually in some ways I prefer speaking in church over the class setting because there is not the opportunity to dispute – I can say what I want – although I still do as Ray says and present my things gently couched and in Mormonese. FWIW I sometimes watch the old guard and they do what I do when I’m not in agreement – tune out.
Fwiw, I love the old guard (most of them), but I speak up for the others. They need to hear someone with my social capital who can say what they want to say (or need to hear). DarkJedi wrote:
I think you both have good points Ray and Nibbler.
Agreed.And my ward doesn’t have some “old guard” know it all. That plays into the equation.
DarkJedi – can’t you just put the virtual throat choke on someone to keep them from speaking up and disagreeing with you? That would seem like a wise use of your powers.
LookingHard wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
I think you both have good points Ray and Nibbler.
Agreed.And my ward doesn’t have some “old guard” know it all. That plays into the equation.
DarkJedi – can’t you just put the virtual throat choke on someone to keep them from speaking up and disagreeing with you? That would seem like a wise use of your powers.
Believe me I have thought about it.
😈 A little lightning from the finger tips has crossed my mind as well. But I have made the point of respecting the opinions and beliefs of others as you expect others to respect your opinions and beliefs and choking or lightning makes me look insincere. I haven’t figured out why God just doesn’t do it, but from their point of view I’m sure they don’t know why I haven’t been struck by lightning or the roof hasn’t fallen on me either.I don’t want the old guard (and another vocal group that I’ll call “new defenders” of the faith) to lose their voice, I just prefer it if they made more room for other voices. Both camps have got the last dozen general conferences seemingly memorized and like to use an appeal to authority to correct people with the One True Answer. I could also use appeals to authority, like Jesus did, but don’t feel comfortable turning SS into a debate.
I’m also of the opinion that I’ll never have social capital. I’m not in the right cliques in church, nor do I care to be. I have negative charisma
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