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nibbler wrote:
Discussions like these can be suppressed by a few individuals in key positions.
I agree, this is also very true.
I find I often have to read the room, assess the topic and situation, and think about my comments and what impact I am aiming for.
I am still practicing. I think that is why church is helpful for me…helps me practice how to judge things and choose how to handle them. Situations vary so greatly, there is no one formula for all.
I learn principles of love this way far greater than staying home and being a hermit.
nibbler wrote:
I’m also of the opinion that I’ll never have social capital.
I am with you. My strategy for staying LDS has been to reduce involvement (and tithing) to a sustainable level. This means no TR. I am quite pleased that my Bishop has permitted me to baptize my children. I do not feel that I will be able to be some sort of change agent in my ward. I do hope that my continued presence will curtail the amount of openly expressed judgment in meetings. I am sufficiently content with that.
I do not have to change the church. It is enough to be in the church but not of the church. I raise my family the best way I know how and pass down the unanswerable questions to the next generation. That is enough.
You do make a good point, Roy. I have changed me and that’s all that really matters. That’s how I manage to stay quiet much of the time. I also gave a “guest report” during lesson 24, but not near as good as yours! A few weeks ago I was at a ward activity, and I started talking to the GD Teacher. I told her I was reading up on the lesson, and found some particularly interesting background on Thomas Marsh and Symonds Ryder. So she asked me if I would like to take 5-10 min of class and share what I learned. While she would probably not just ask just anybody to do this, I have a good relationship with her, as she was my RS pres while I was bishop. I gave her A LOT of autonomy while RS President, and she really appreciated it as she shared that with me when I was released and a new bishop was put in who she served with.
Anyway, back to class. I used John Hammer’s 2009 By Common Consent post as the bases of my presentation, and also Ganeshji Cherian’s post at KiwiMormon.
I started out quoting Pres Uchtdorf’s 2013 talk about why people leave, with emphasis on the “It is not that simple” part of his talk. I then went over the typical milk story, then filled in the background on what really happened. I finished with this statement: “While it is true that Marsh left the church in 1838, and while Milk Stippings may have played a small part in it, the main reason was he was not able to reconcile the Mormon mobs and their looting with the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I then took up Ryder, and said again it was not his misspelled name that caused him to leave the church, but that it was the coming of the United Order, and his fear of losing his land to the church. I then said it is easy to judge him now for being weak in his testimony, but how many in this class today would freely give all your property to the bishop if he asked for it. I then quoted Uchtdorf again and said “It is not that simple”
I closed by saying that in 35 years of leadership callings in the church, and meeting with literally hundreds of inactive people, and people that have left the church, I did not meet one person that left because they were offended. I said I’ve known people that have left because of the church’s stand on gay marriage, and about honesty issues with church history, but never because they were offended.
I got several comments from the people after class thanking me for giving the whole story. And the teacher asked me to sub for her next month!
Sheldon wrote:
And the teacher asked me to sub for her next month!
:thumbup: Sounds like people in your ward have an appetite for such things…that’s great. I have felt for a while the church is open to this more than we fear sometimes.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone counters it with a little defensive posturing on 14 Fundamentals or something like that…but that is ok. I would welcome that dialogue and allow that view to be expressed as well…showing that both views can coexist in your ward. Let us know how your lesson goes next time.
Sheldon – That is happy dance material on a million fronts. Bless you for being a wonderful Bishop. Double bless you for getting the factual message out. Reuben and Sheldon – Major strides for all of us. Thank you.
I believe and continue to believe – That we Mormons will have to line up for hours and do penance for the smearing of Thomas Marsh. Handshakes and hugs will not do it. 180 years of character slander is going to take us a long time to repent from.
Sheldon wrote:
I started out quoting Pres Uchtdorf’s 2013 talk about why people leave, with emphasis on the “It is not that simple” part of his talk. I then went over the typical milk story, then filled in the background on what really happened. I finished with this statement: “While it is true that Marsh left the church in 1838, and while Milk Stippings may have played a small part in it, the main reason was he was not able to reconcile the Mormon mobs and their looting with the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I followed this script except I omitted the milk story because that was shared by the instructor (Uchtdorf’s not that simple, probably played “a” factor but there were probably other factors, I did say “Danites” instead of Mormon mobs). It didn’t go over so well… but I also wasn’t invited to make my comments, I volunteered them.
Meh. You win some, you lose some.
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