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I have not encountered this yet and wondered if others have and how you have dealt with it. I am admittedly sensitive to such things and I also tend to stew on things sometimes. here’s what happened: yesterday in HPG the lesson was on Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk “It Works Wonderfully.” I should note that this same talk was the high council topic for the previous Sunday. The teacher is probably the most black and white guy I know and someone I generally avoid at church (there is some bad blood between us). Near the beginning of the lesson he was off script and talking about how high priests tend to want to delve deeper into stuff but that maybe we shouldn’t – but then began to speculate on some doctrines about the afterlife after a question was posed. I put in my two cents that we shouldn’t speculate about things we don’t know about (the conversation was drifting toward those who reject the church here not ever getting a future opportunity and exactly how temple work fits in there) . Things were going along fine after that until he got to the part about those for whom it doesn’t work wonderfully. Even then it was fine but he went off script again and started talking about those fully active members who suddenly “go off the deep end” and stop coming to church (he is very well aware of my history, as is everybody else in the room). I was about to walk out when another guy who had been inactive for a long period of time many years ago spoke up and gave a pretty good two minute speech about how we shouldn’t judge anyone else because we have no idea what’s going on in their lives and he described some real challenges some of us have faced. (He was in the bishopric when I stopped coming to church and knew some of the circumstances.) I thanked him afterwards.
What would you have done?
I all honesty DJ, I would have started to check Facebook or something else on my phone and tuned out. That being said, it would probably be a miracle in and of itself if I actually went. Sorry you had to deal with that. I think the “judge not” approach is probably the best combination of taking the high road and being effective at the same time. Then again you could always walk out and slam the door. But that would be neither effective nor the high road, and I like the high road myself.
Recently my mom has had some mental health issues that have caused her to be institutionalized twice in the last two years. It has been incredibly stressing on my dad, and all of us for that matter. I have seen my dad become a much less judgmental person over the last two years. Trials and struggles will do that to a person. With everything my wife and I have been going through my dad has told me that he loves me and my wife, and that he doesn’t judge us in any way. He says he knows he is not qualified to judge us.
Actually, I think that is the best response you can give. Point out that none of us are qualified to judge each other. He (capital H) is the only one that can do that. He has a perfect knowledge. We do not. He knows each of us completely. We do not. To presuppose that we know the outcome of how someone will be judged is presumptions and usurps His power and authority.
Who knows what I would have done. Being here and not using my reactionary limbic brain, I would want to say that I don’t know if we know. And all I know is that Christ told me to love them and the longer I have lived, the more I realize we don’t know what someone else is going through (as was said in your class).
I would have pointed out that some “sins” are easier to see than others, and that we know that there are many so-called active church members who won’t merit the eternal reward that everyone thinks. Just because someone attends church doesn’t mean that they “get” it. Sometimes those who are active are the least Christ-like of all. Everyone has to travel their own path and work out their own salvation with fear & trembling. Everyone. I would have 2nd the man who spoke up and said something like…
Quote:I agree, with individual circumstances, things are never so simple that we know all the reasons why the church isn’t working for some people at some periods in their lives. I’ve experienced it myself, and I can tell you, there are lots of reasons people don’t feel comfortable coming to church with us in our ward. I appreciate many of the General Conference talks that support this idea…that there are a myriad of reasons, and it is not easy to understand. For example, Pres Uchtodorf said in 2013:
Quote:One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.
So our job is to make a safe place for everyone to come, no matter where they are in their journey. It’s never simple, as Pres Uchtdorf taught us.
I guess I would make it very clear that I am open to people’s thoughts about it, but that they should be speaking respectfully to people like me that have had times the church has NOT worked for me.
They need that reminder to speak that way in classes and filter their comments, even if I know at times people have judged me and from their point of view see my position as a sign of weakness in faith because they think one should never doubt. It is just how they see it. They think they would never stop coming to church…they can’t imagine it. And maybe someday they’ll see a broader vision or maybe life will compel them to see things differently when they face their own issue someday. Or maybe not…and I am find with allowing them to see it their way. But I appreciate more tempered comments and open statements that are more welcoming to those who have stopped going to church and then returned.
I agree with Heber13. I would of 2nd the brother who spoke up. If we don’t speak up, they win. If we walk out, they win.
if we do speak up, then we might get censured. But it’s a price worth paying.
I have come to realize that in the wake of the “Policy Revelation”, I need to stay, witness, and above all, love.
I don’t think we can go wrong if we focus on love. Every time someone throws off a judgment of others – as was the case here — they are not loving. But as well, if we nail the teacher’s butt, we’re not loving either. So it boils down to, “I don’t know, it seems to me that stories of leaving get a lot less interesting when we learn both sides. And as LDS, we are called to lift each others’ burdens, mourn with those who mourn, and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. In other words, we are to love unconditionally as god loves us. How, then, is our conversation here, ridiculing those who are struggling with beliefs and faith, consistent with God’s love? How effective are we when we reject others? Does that help bring them back to our community?”
Well, perhaps our community has become so judgmental that bringing them back may not be in their interests. But, I have to say, we can do a lot better.
just my 2c
I would have considered a few things.. a) looked disinterested and pulled out my kindle, or started reading the book intently.
b) pulled out an unrelated quote from the book to get the conversation back on track.
c) posed a question — I have one question, in whom does the greater sin lie — the person being judged, or the person doing the judging?
d) I probably wouldn’t have walked out. But I might not return for a few weeks, preferring to do something more edifying. If the guy was consciously doing what he was doing, my absence may send a message.
Now, is this guy narcissistic? If so, he was doing it probably to get your goat. In which case, I would show no emotion, and go with option a) or b) or c). If he knows he’s bugging you, he gets satisfaction from it and feels absolutely no remorse. If he was normal, but just judgmental, than any of the ideas above would work for me…
I like to set up situations where I win no matter what happens. If someone is insulting in priesthood? Great, I win by using the time to read my favorite novel in a classroom or my car. If priesthood is edifying, then I stay and enjoy it…no lose situation there!
I speak up regularly – slowly, softly, and in orthodox terms. I do it in any meeting I am attending, no matter who else is there. Why? The voices that are heard are the only ones that will be remembered.
(Good to see you again, wayfarer.)
I don’t like the “if I were in that situation I’d do this…” what if scenarios because I have discovered in my life that when I’m really in a situation I usually do something I thought I wouldn’t do or never thought of doing at all. I do appreciate all your advice. FWIW, the dark side was already prevailing by the time we got to that point so I was not in a position to do what more more calm friend did for me (or ray would have done). I hope to return the favor for him someday. He might well have felt attacked as well, considering our pasts have some commonalities – and in his speech he did specifically mention a major contributing factor to my own crisis (among several other things). And, I was already playing with my tablet, although I was not fully immersed in anything. I have spoken up before, but as I said the dark side was strong with me at that moment and I might not even have liked what I said. In the room I probably had much more cred (and am much more liked) than the guy teaching. He only teaches 4th Sundays, the HPGLs teach first, we rotate 2nd and 3rd among us and I travel about 2 Sundays a month. I get to choose one of those, so I could always choose to travel 4th if I wanted (next month that one has been chosen for me). Truth is this guy is the brother of the prodigal – somewhat upset that I can be away 10 years and come back and be a high councilor while he’s stuck being GD teacher. And truth is the neighbors I have the most trouble loving are those with whom I disagree the most – he sees no gray, I see no black or white.
Old-Timer wrote:I speak up regularly – slowly, softly, and in orthodox terms. I do it in any meeting I am attending, no matter who else is there.
Why? The voices that are heard are the only ones that will be remembered.
(Good to see you again, wayfarer.)
good to be seen. Of course you know where you can find me most of the time…
I totally agree with the idea that we need to speak up, and use “orthodox terms” to express the Way as we see it. I think it important that all of us can only perceive things from our own point of view, thus being humble is always in order. As well, when we confront people with language that makes them uncomfortable, they turn off as quickly as we do when we hear what seems to us as being narrow-minded orthodoxy. We all see through a glass, darkly.
I think the Book of Mormon helps us understand how to share the Word as we understand it. I now see the narrative of the Book differently, understanding the humanity of the heroes, and the goodness of the villians. Are we Laman and Lemuel and the active church members Nephi and Sam? Or, is it that Laman and Lemuel are the representatives of Jewish orthodoxy (they are, in fact), and Lehi is more like “Denver Snuffer”, and Nephi is more like “Rock Waterman”. Realizing this, I can see that the real lessons learned in the Book of Mormon are how miserably Nephi failed in convincing his brethren by being so self-righteous (no offense to Rock — he isn’t self righteous, but Nephi sure was).
We are going to be attacked in our meetings — no question about it. Our faith journeys are in
transformation: we are coming to a new rebirth of our understanding of God and the gospel. We are not “losing faith”, but rather, our faith is being refined by the fire of doubt and adversity. This is inherently threatening to our brethren and sisters who find great happiness in what they perceive as certainties of the Church and the comfort of following the leaders without question. Truth be known, our faith journeys are as difficult as Lehi’s family was in leaving Jerusalem. Yet such “leaving” is purely symbolic, at least for me. I have already “left” orthodoxy — absolutely. But for many reasons, I “Stay LDS” in as full of a sense of being an active member as I can possibly stand. Lately, in the wake of the “Policy Revelation”, this has become
really hard! Not a week goes by that I don’t get negative energy as I try to share what I think is the more loving aspects of the Gospel in response to “we/they” bigotry. So how do we survive? Again, I think the answer may be in the Book of Mormon. Symbolically, I think of the Church as being the “Lamanites” of the time of Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah. Clearly, the disciples of Alma the elder — those who lifted each others’ burdens, mourned with those who mourn, and comoforted those who stood in need of comfort, had withdrawn themselves from the prevailing culture. Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah were renegades: they had gone through their “rumspringa” and had transformed their faith and identities into an abiding and powerful faith.
The most successful among these was Ammon. While his brothers likely took the confrontational approach with the Lamanites, Ammon chose to serve them, and when asked to teach, chose to use terms that Lamoni would understand. He spoke in the language of the prevailing culture — he was not confrontational, nor did he call them wicked and insist on their repentance.
I firmly believe that the Book of Mormon was written for and about us
Mormonsin our times. When it speaks of nephites and lamanites, it is not speaking of “nephites=mormons” and “lamanites=the world”, but rather, both nephi and laman were members of the (jewish) church. When it speaks of a great and spacious building, we have to ask ourselves whether our great and spacious conference center and temples are not a form thereof. When it speaks of “king men”, we need to contemplate whether our desire to put our trust in the arm of flesh — authoritarianism (“follow the prophet: he cannot lead us astray”) — isn’t a case in point. When it speaks of “secret combinations”, we need to consider how the lack of transparency in the church and the secret attempts to subvert the voice of the people in Hawaii in the 90s isn’t also a case in point. In 1986, I sat fifty feet from a Prophet of God, Ezra Taft Benson, when he declared his first words as Prophet: that the Church is under condemnation for not heeding the words of the Book of Mormon. In halting words, as if receiving them right then and there, he spoke without his prepared speech and uttered what became his theme as prophet. Unfortunately, the church decided in response to focus on the Book of Mormon as a tool for proving that we are the “true church” rather than embracing the radical message it embodies.
I guess the point of this long post is to say that the message of the book of mormon to us has to be to lift each others’ burdens, to mourn with those who mourn, to comfort those who stand in need of comfort, and to witness of God (who is “love”) in all times and in all places we may be. Sure, this means that our church needs to be more loving and the hateful “Policy Revelation” stands in direct contrast to the truth of the gospel — but here is the deal: if we leave, if we become hateful in response, then we cannot lift our LDS brothers and sisters burdens, we cannot mourn with them, comfort them, and our witness will never be heard. When we become angry, confrontational, silent, or leave, we are failing to embrace our covenant as expressed in the book of mormon. And when we “witness” — if we do so in a way that turns people off, then we aren’t being effective.
Ultimately, the message of the book of mormon is that the lamanites dwindled in unbelief and the self-righteous nephites were killed off. Yet, in the middle of this dynamic, there were moments when a Nephite became a lamanite (Ammon) and a Lamanite became the Prophet (Samuel). And when Nephites and Lamanites became One, as in the case of the Ammonites and in third/fourth nephi, they realized Zion.
We who are trying to stay amidst this horrible division among us are becoming fewer and fewer as we try to hold on. It’s very hard to stay LDS right now, at least for me. Yet I remain committed to staying. And if so, then finding a way to be One with the better elements of our LDS community is in order. So, while i feel compelled to speak out against bigotry and we/they divisiveness, how i do so truly matters.
DarkJedi wrote:I don’t like the “if I were in that situation I’d do this…” what if scenarios because I have discovered in my life that when I’m really in a situation I usually do something I thought I wouldn’t do or never thought of doing at all…
This is so true. It is so easy for us to “Monday morning quarterback” your decisions, and tell you what you ‘should’ have done. But when you are in the moment, and a comment catches you off guard, who knows what will happen.
At least you were able to withstand the temptation of the dark side. I’d call that a win!
I’m slow to think. Half the time I don’t think of something good to say until several days later, the other half of the time I don’t even recognize that there was an opportunity to begin with. That accounts for why I’m silent nearly 100% of the time. I don’t want to say something and sour someone to a new way of thinking because I’m terrible at communicating. I’m a poor spokesman. It must be nice to have that gift of Ammon, to speak in a language that can be heard. Not all of us have that gift. I’m sure people that have the gift would say that it takes practice and I’m also sure that some people will take to it quicker than others. Sometimes gifts are gifts.
Here’s what I see as the flip side of that coin. My “something good to say” that only comes to mind several days later is still perfectly fine. After all, the comment is more for me than it is for anyone else. The growth came from thinking about it for a few days and coming up with something that
Ineeded to hear in response to something someone said, even if no one else other than me ever gets to hear it. wayfarer wrote:So, while i feel compelled to speak out against bigotry and we/they divisiveness, how i do so truly matters.
The whole post is great, wayfarer. This last sentence is the crux of it.
I’m not sure if my speaking up will do anything to change the church, change the others in the class speaking out harshly, or change the silent folks sitting in the room listening.
But…it is good for me to do so. It is practicing my religion to find kind ways to express my thoughts with others to add to discussions, not derail or take away from others.
It is good for me to find the courage to do it in a safe place like a HPG class where it likely doesn’t matter to anyone else but to my character.
nibbler wrote:Here’s what I see as the flip side of that coin. My “something good to say” that only comes to mind several days later is still perfectly fine. After all, the comment is more for me than it is for anyone else. The growth came from thinking about it for a few days and coming up with something that I needed to hear in response to something someone said, even if no one else other than me ever gets to hear it.
+1
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