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I just can not get past it anymore. To me it is so obvious in your face. Give us the money or else. I am jaded to the point that I can not see what benefit is derived from paying tithing in the amounts the church wants. It smells to me that you have to pay for exaltation (temple participation) Now you have to pay to participate in any ordinances (have to have a temple recommend). It just seems so ludicrous to me that your standing and your “exaltation” is dependent on paying up. I guess you could look at it as a business transaction in that you pay a set amount and you get goods or services in return. In this case some kind of eternal bliss. But honestly it feels more like a ponzie scheme to me nowadays. I admit when I was TBM I was relentless about tithing. I was sure I would lose my job or the house would burn down if I did not pay up. I took great pride in writing out that big check at the end of the year and handing it over to the ward clerk. Look at me!!! I could have bought a boat or car but no I am giving you the money. Now the thought of tithing settlement makes me queasy. It seems so much like extortion. This year I just am not going to go even when the ward clerk calls and tries to schedule me. Of course I will pay some tithing to church headquarters like I have for the last two years. What the amount will be I have not quite determined yet. I will have to analyze my “surplus” for the year I guess it is not so much the paying of the money that bothers me as much as the way it is extracted from the members. BLessings and promises galore but never a simple request that the church needs our help and your donations would be appreciated. We are told it is a privilege, that it is fire insurance, that no honest member would withhold money from the lord. No detail of what the money will be used for to help us feel like we are working for a common goal, just pay up and do not ask what happens to the money.
Sorry for the rant but this one has been a growing irritant for me.
Cadence wrote:I just can not get past it anymore.
To me it is so obvious in your face.Give us the money or else. I am jaded to the point that I can not see what benefit is derived from paying tithing in the amounts the church wants. It smells to me that you have to pay for exaltation (temple participation) Now you have to pay to participate in any ordinances(have to have a temple recommend). It just seems so ludicrous to me that your standing and your “exaltation” is dependent on payingup. No detail of what the money will be used for to help us feel like we are working for a common goal, just pay up and do not ask what happens to the money.Sorry for the rant but
this one has been a growing irritant for me.Yep.
Similar thoughts here..for me, the problem is that the large sums of money given don’t seem to trickle back to the Wards to make the lives of the members better. I finally acknowledged I need some help with my thoughts — some cognitive based therapy to think more positively about my Church experience, my life, to forgive. But the LDS Social Services didn’t have the capacity to take me on. Our Ward budget is measly, and our Ward activities — uninspiring due to lack of funds. Our Bishops too busy to handle everything on their plate and help the members adequately in many cases…
My father told me that in his Church, they have a paid minister trained in counseling and a youth leader that is paid a part-time salary to lead activities, and make them good, to keep it well organized…in my own Ward, my daugther comes to me saying “I don’t know what I should be doing as [insert class president here]. She has so much talent that could be developed yet the leaders are too busy with their lives to sit down and train her…
Anyway, that is my take on it…I do believe one can’t let this angst get in the way of being charitable though — at some level. There are risks that after a lifetime of paying to the Church, and eventually resenting it, you might want to just keep it for yourself…but whether you buy into the whole one true Church concept or not, the scriptures are clear that looking after the poor and needy is at the core of the gospel….I feel that my funds this year will go to the poor and needy so as to further my sense of charity. Fortunately, I have another year of real estate losses to write off against my income, which makes tithing a non-issue. And I don’t see those losses coming back any time soon to create a tithing obligation.
And you know what, I never liked paying tithing — ever. I’m not sure why, as I’ve always been good hearted, but the large sums and the one-way flow of effort that I’ve seen, often without even humanistic appreciation, leaves a bad taste in my mouth for the time being. I hope it will change eventually.
I agree with SD that there is a great temptation if you stop paying tithing to just keep it resentfully. I too recommend if you feel you can’t or don’t want to pay it to the church that you find a worthy charity (there are great sites on line to evaluate charities and other NPOs that will tell you what % goes to overhead and what % goes to the charitable endeavor) as an alternative and still donate the same amount, only because it is not a downgrade in your spiritual pursuits; in fact your additional personal involvement could make it an upgrade. My own view is you should never trade down. You can choose where it goes. You are still square with your own desire to help others. I’m going to answer this one at the most basic level possible: In a practical way, tithing is a membership fee – at the very least, for temple membership. Any type of membership fee feels burdensome IF the person paying doesn’t feel like he is getting anything of worth out of it – or “enough” of worth, to be more precise. Any type of membership fee is paid gladly IF the person paying feels like she is getting enough of “worth” out of it.
Therein lies the rub. How each member feels about paying tithing (and offerings) generally is in direct proportion to how strongly they believe in the benefit/effect of doing so – which is true, btw, about almost everything in life (including participating here, fwiw). Therefore, the “duty” of the Church (any church or organization, really) is to provide “meaning” and “worth” to the membership. When that occurs, especially at a high level, the payment of tithing isn’t as much of an issue; when it doesn’t occur, tithing becomes an issue.
The question for those who are faced with a faith crisis of some kind, imo, is what others have said – to continue to contribute “a tithe” in some way, whether that be to the Church or another organization, in order to avoid losing the “spirit of tithing and offering”. That is an incredibly important, soul-altering spirit, imo.
I have one other angle on this though. Someone regular on this site mentioned a few months ago that [in a particular situation, someone] kept mentioning they were going to extract tithing records from SLC…as part of the whole assessment of whether there should be Church discipline (perhaps?)…what reason could they have had for this? For me, this goes well beyond the paying to play concept, or the membership fee concept. Perhaps to see if there was temple attendance that was not given worthily? And given the fact that the amount paid in tithing is not verified to be 10%, relying on member’s integrity to report, how could this investigation have helped or contributed to the inquiry? When I read about the tithing involvement in that situation, it concerned me, because it seemed to go well beyond character-building, and into administrative territory — potentially linking a person’s disciplinary proceedings to financial contributions. It seemed way out of disconnect.
SilentDawning wrote:I have one other angle on this though. Someone regular on this site mentioned a few months ago that during a Cache Valley focus on middle way mormonism, the Bishop or SP kept mentioning they were going to extract tithing records from SLC…as part of the whole assessment of whether there should be Church discipline (perhaps?)…what reason could they have had for this? For me, this goes well beyond the paying to play concept, or the membership fee concept.
Perhaps to see if there was temple attendance that was not given worthily? And given the fact that the amount paid in tithing is not verified to be 10%, relying on member’s integrity to report, how could this investigation have helped or contributed to the inquiry? When I read about the tithing involvement in that situation, it concerned me, because it seemed to go well beyond character-building, and into administrative territory — potentially linking a person’s disciplinary proceedings to financial contributions. It seemed way out of disconnect.
I honestly don’t see how the amount one pays matters. I personally have lost more net worth in the past two years than my income or increase has been, so it is quite conceivable that my ‘full tithe’ will be zero or very minimal. When I owned my own business, the concept of paying on gross anything was unimaginable, because the first few years of a business one typically makes no profit whatsoever. The point is that there are a lot of reasons for which ‘zero’ is an acceptable, full tithe, and it’s none of anybody’s business what the personal circumstances are.to be clear the church says:
Quote:Tithing is a commandment from the Lord to give one-tenth of all our increase, which we understand to mean income.
gross income? income net of taxes? income net of taxes and expenses (as would be the case of a proprietorship)? all of these are legitimate interpretations, and the church refuses to make any distinction — it is up to your personal intepretation. Therefore, the definition of ‘full tithe’ does not have an amount associated with it.On the other hand, if a member claims that they paid SLC and SLC doesn’t have any record of it, regardless of amount, perhaps the bishop or SP may be justified in concluding that a person has lied on a TR interview or tithing settlement. That’s the only justification I can find for what you mention as what may be happening. And in my impression, outright lying to leadership is not ethical or moral behavior.
I think it’s really important that one be confident and sure of one’s own beliefs. Paying nothing in tithing to the church when you expect some benefits from that church, including a place to worship for your family, is not exactly right. I believe that the moral, ethical thing to do is the determine what ‘tithing’ means to you in terms of amount of charitable donations, then to pay in good conscience what you think the church’s portion of that is, and to then confidently and honestly report a full tithe in both the tithing settlement and TR interview. There should be no equivocation or explanation further, in my opinion.
It would be fine to say that tithing is just a membership fee, IF this was just some kind of civic or private organization. It’s not. Well – it doesn’t claim to be anyway. It claims to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH —- and the ONLY priesthood on the earth that ALL PEOPLE MUST GO THROUGH for exaltation. So the church can’t have it both ways. If they want to claim the exclusive right of priesthood and exaltation, are they requiring you to PAY TO PLAY —- pay for exaltation, or aren’t they?
Personally I think Spock is right on, and I don’t see much difference between what the Catholics were doing when selling indulgences and tithing requirement for TR and exaltation.
The church can’t have it both ways.
Whatever the case is, I don’t think the church is particularly successful in doing this. How many people does the church baptize, and how many of them are put off by this relentless nagging? How many of them make it to the temple? Come to think of it, how many investigators do we deter by it, before they even get baptized?
And another thing, I appreciate we have to pay for a bus, but the temple trips round here are far too dear.
p.s. My tithing settlement’s this week…
wayfarer wrote:…On the other hand, if a member claims that they paid SLC and SLC doesn’t have any record of it, regardless of amount, perhaps the bishop or SP may be justified in concluding that a person has lied on a TR interview or tithing settlement. That’s the only justification I can find for what you mention as what may be happening. And in my impression, outright lying to leadership is not ethical or moral behavior…
Six months ago this would have sent me into a meltdown. Today, I just chuckled and shrugged it off. Thanks StayLDS. Give credit where credit is due.
cwald wrote:It would be fine to say that tithing is just a membership fee, IF this was just some kind of civic or private organization. It’s not. Well – it doesn’t claim to be anyway. It claims to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH —- and the ONLY priesthood on the earth that ALL PEOPLE MUST GO THROUGH for exaltation.
So the church can’t have it both ways. If they want to claim the exclusive right of priesthood and exaltation, are they requiring you to PAY TO PLAY —- pay for exaltation, or aren’t they?
Personally I think Spock is right on, and I don’t see much difference between what the Catholics were doing when selling indulgences and tithing requirement for TR and exaltation.
The church can’t have it both ways.
Yes the church requires a fee for exaltation. There is no way to get around it.
It is not that the church needs funds to have buildings, turn on the lights and pay the heating bill, I get that. Then looking at it as a membership fee makes sense. It is that the church tries to hold your exhalation in the balance, it wedges itself in between family members, It promises you that you will burn to stubble if you do not pay. The mere fact that there is tithing settlement where you declare what you have paid, but no accountability on the churches part is not good. There are few if any reputable charities that could get away with this.
Again my point is, the issue is not that donating is a bad thing, it is the way the church extorts it out of its members that bothers me. Please just ask me for help because you need it and stop making grandiose claims about the rewards of investing in the church. There are people who are in jail for doing just that.
But I have to come to the Church’s partial defence here (and in a way, I can’t believe I’m writing this) — only to say that the majority of the local leaders, if not all that I have worked with, sincerely believe paying tithing is a gateway to further blessings. The reason I can say this with confidence is that tithing collections are not tied to their personal economic interest. I read
Extensions of Powerby Michael Quinn, and he describes how tithing evolved historically. It was not consistently collected at one point, and different prophets tried to implement different rules to get the members to pay enough to keep the Church afloat. In the 1950’s they had a financial crisis, and then tithing got even more emphasis. I think the current program of tithing settlement represents the evolution of a Church toward figuring out how to get its fiscal house in order — as permanently as possible. I don’t really blame them for that. However, what little evidence is available suggests their cashflow has outstripped their needs at this point…but how can they go back to saying “you don’t have to pay 10% anymore” or some other less restrictive policy? Once the system is working, I can see how they would rather not mess with it, change the culture and then potentially have to retrench it again should financial problems result.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I … recommend if you feel you can’t or don’t want to pay it to the church that you find a worthy charity
Simply redirecting to the church’s humanitarian fund might be a good way to go. I don’t know how the church does its accounting (obviously) so it’s possible that doing so might end up putting money in the church’s general fund, but I would hope that’s not the case. And it would be pretty hard to find an organization with lower overhead.cwald wrote:wayfarer wrote:…On the other hand, if a member claims that they paid SLC and SLC doesn’t have any record of it, regardless of amount, perhaps the bishop or SP may be justified in concluding that a person has lied on a TR interview or tithing settlement. That’s the only justification I can find for what you mention as what may be happening. And in my impression, outright lying to leadership is not ethical or moral behavior…
Six months ago this would have sent me into a meltdown. Today, I just chuckled and shrugged it off. Thanks StayLDS. Give credit where credit is due.
cwald, I think I can see where you’re coming from and probably agree, or at least am trying to sort out your response. Although it may be clear the the Church has lied and deceived, and continues in many cases to do so, either intentionally or otherwise, it doesn’t justify lying and deceiving on my part. The Doc & Cov has this gem:Doctrine and Covenants 10:28 wrote:Verily, verily, I say unto you, wo be unto him that lieth to deceive because he supposeth that another lieth to deceive, for such are not exempt from the justice of God.
Of course, in the context of Joseph Smith, this drips with irony, but it’s not a bad statement. Lao Tzu also said:Lao Tzu in Tao Te Ching, chapter 49 wrote:To the faithful (honest), the sage is faithful (honest). To the unfaithful (dishonest), the sage is also faithful
Confucius stated much the same things, as did Jesus on the Sermon on the Mount. The universal ethic that stands above the pettiness of a church that lies and deceives is to not do the same. You and I both have struggled with this concept of integrity in interviews and the like. It’s not easy, perhaps, but it’s the only think one really can do, ultimately.please tell me if I misunderstand your intent with the comment.
wayfarer wrote:…please tell me if I misunderstand your intent with the comment.
I would have had a melt down six months ago, because SD was talking my experience six months ago, of getting thrown under the bus by family members and church leaders for “apostasy” —- and in the end, basically justifying it by citing a decline in yearly tithing amounts after they called SLC about my tithing records.
I’m in a better place now.
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