Paying to play

[Anonymous]

I have a similar problem with my wife not thinking ahead. We did personality tests, and she doesn’t have any strategic thinking — i have it all. So any planning for the future has to come from me. (She’s good at other things I’m not though).

If I was you, I would embark on an retirement attitude “unfreezing” program aimed at your wife. Also, sit down and talk about what life is like for people who have not planned for retirement. There may be people in your Ward or family members who are in that situation and you can point to their situation as a forecast of what your life will be like as you age. There may well be people who have planned and have the freedom that comes from saving as well that you can point to, their lifestyle etcetera. Send her articles via email you find on the web about retirement issues.

Another idea is to show her a retirement calculator and how much money your family needs to retire at certain ages — 55, 65, 75 and compare that to how much you think you’ll have on your current path. That can be a real eye opener. Also, work a deal where you give something up so she will go to a retirement planning seminar or meet with a financial planner. All these things could potentially change her mind.

You are “unfreezing” her attitudes toward retirement….I would focus on that.

I would also shoot for an automatic withdrawal against the mortgage even if it was small. With that happening automatically she might forget about it and it will happen regularly.

Regarding the comment from the EQ person — ignore it. He knows nothing about yoru situation (likely). I had a similar set of responses from people when I kept dating girls and breaking up with them as a YSA because they were not suitable. The comments bothered me, but I told myself “Are THEY going to have to live with these women someday? If the marriage doesnt’ work out, will THEY pick up the alimony or child support payments? The emotional hardship and dislocation? NO”. Same with the people at Church. They know little about your situation and therefore are wholly unqualified to comment on your situation. Ignore them as best you can.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Another idea is to show her a retirement calculator and how much money your family needs to retire at certain ages — 55, 65, 75 and compare that to how much you think you’ll have on your current path. That can be a real eye opener. Also, work a deal where you give something up so she will go to a retirement planning seminar or meet with a financial planner.

Yeah, I’m in my early 30’s and according to a book I read I will need to save 18% of my income in order to retire without sacrificing standard of living. 18%???? Who does that??? 😮

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I’m going to answer this one at the most basic level possible:

In a practical way, tithing is a membership fee – at the very least, for temple membership. Any type of membership fee feels burdensome IF the person paying doesn’t feel like he is getting anything of worth out of it – or “enough” of worth, to be more precise. Any type of membership fee is paid gladly IF the person paying feels like she is getting enough of “worth” out of it.

Therein lies the rub. How each member feels about paying tithing (and offerings) generally is in direct proportion to how strongly they believe in the benefit/effect of doing so – which is true, btw, about almost everything in life (including participating here, fwiw). Therefore, the “duty” of the Church (any church or organization, really) is to provide “meaning” and “worth” to the membership. When that occurs, especially at a high level, the payment of tithing isn’t as much of an issue; when it doesn’t occur, tithing becomes an issue.

The question for those who are faced with a faith crisis of some kind, imo, is what others have said – to continue to contribute “a tithe” in some way, whether that be to the Church or another organization, in order to avoid losing the “spirit of tithing and offering”. That is an incredibly important, soul-altering spirit, imo.

Ray thank you for your words, I was struggling with how to respond. When I have been in my low moments I have felt like many here that tithing is a ploy and one that is used inappropriately.

On the other hand when my testimony is strong, when I am nourishing it within the church and feel the Lord’s hand working within the church to sanctify me, I see tithing as a joy to pay.

Tithing is a commandment and while it seems like a lot, it certainly has precedence in the Old Testament at least.

Just some thoughts.

[Anonymous]

I agree Ray.

However…We should call it a membership fee.

And we should call it a temple attendance fee.

We should call a spade a spade.

Chad Waldron

Bend Oregon Stake

[Anonymous]

I have called it both of those, cwald, since I believe it is both of those – except for the fact that nobody is excommunicated for not paying it, so it really is a temple attendance fee.

I don’t have a problem with it, since I’d FAR rather have the Church be financially solvent and have a “year’s capital supply”, for example – but I’m not naive enough to tihnk it’s not a temple attendance fee at the most practical level.

[Anonymous]

See, what I find odd about tithing is that D&C 121 indicates the priesthood should not be used to compel people to do things. It says that when compulsion is exercised on the souls of men, the heavens withdraw themselves, and amen to the priesthood authority.

Yet tithing, in my view, is a form of compulsion. With the interviews and denial of temple blessings for not paying tithing, it provides a definite form of immediate and temporal pressure for members to behave a certain way or be denied the blessings of eternal life eventually. And also be deined certain priviledges even OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE now. And this in spite of the fact they may be living a clean life and even giving a large portion of their money to others (even outside organizations, not necessarily the Church) as a form of selfless, character-building sacrifice.

And D&C 121 indicates that the goal of priesthood authority is to get the kingdom “flowing unto [you]” without compulsory means — that is — intrinsic behavior for its own sake, as an expression of character. That is another thing that bothers me about tithing; it takes what is an intrinsic matter, and makes it extrinsic. It starts to look more like compulsion than volunteerism….and that violates our own principles about the use of priesthood power.

I remember when GBH spoke about money in families. He said “there never seems to be enough for everyone’s needs” or similar. I couldn’t help but think how ironic that statement sounded — when this wealthy organization demands 10% from everyone across the board. And that it does so with many leaders implying it should be on gross income, not surplus. And that it does so out of harmony with the scriptural definition in D&C of tithing as “10% or our interest annually”, which back in the 1800’s, meant surplus, not personal revenue — there is a difference.

Also disturbing to me is to see how well-maintained everything is in the church due to tithing funds, yet families don’t have the money to see their own homes maintained in a similar fashion. It seems that large organizations have the money for such things — to keep their own premises running in tip-top order, yet individuals, the engine of wealthy in the church, must often sacrifice such things to stay right with the Church.

This certainly bothers me. The same argument could be made for the one year temple marriage waiting penalty if you get a civil marriage in North America. Thus, forcing me to choose between my native family, and the temple. But that is another matter. There is far too much high stakes compulsion, and that is part of what throws me into the abyss of crisis in the church.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Yet tithing, in my view, is a form of compulsion. With the interviews and denial of temple blessings for not paying tithing, it provides a definite form of immediate and temporal pressure for members to behave a certain way or be denied the blessings of eternal life eventually.

….

And that it does so with many leaders implying it should be on gross income, not surplus. And that it does so out of harmony with the scriptural definition in D&C of tithing as “10% or our interest annually”, which back in the 1800’s, meant surplus, not personal revenue — there is a difference.

the question I must ask myself is whether buying into the deceptive tactic of ‘implied commandment’ is healthy for me, and I have found that it is not.

if god says that no poer or influence ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, then pursuasion and long suffering are intended to invoke willing and free conformance not mandated compliance. When I don’t feel that I am free, then I’m obeying out of fear rather than love.

I am inclined to put ‘love’, particularly ‘agape’, at the pivot of the Way. we act, at times, because we are fearful. other times, we act in the anticipation of a reward. to act without fear and without desire is to simply act in faith, to love.

Adam was asked, “Why dost thou offer sacrifices to the Lord”, and he answered, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me”. He didn’t do it because of fear. he didn’t do it because of reward. There was no temple recommend there — he was already expelled into the lone and dreary world, with no hope except to work by the sweat of his brow. Yet he continued to love the Lord, offering up the firstlings of his flock.

I believe that once the church creates a worldly carrot-and-stick model for obedience, withdrawing earthly rewards as punishment for not paying tithing or conforming to illogical commandments such as the WoW, or blind obedience, that it has seriously lost the Way. This church and kingdom is intended to be a place of refuge for sinners, not a club for the ‘so-called’ righteous. I would think that an honest statement that I am truly human, make mistakes, and need the temple as a place to find peace and the presence of the Lord would be a stronger and more important qualification for entry than one who seeks a reward for their own perfection.

I need the Lord in my life, however I define him/her. I go to the temple of nature and find the Lord’s presence everywhere. I go to the temples made of human hands, and I can find that presence there, but it is often what I take with me. In serving in the latter, i hope to convey a meaningful experience to each person coming to seek that presence, and I believe most temple workers have that focus. The temple provides something that people need, and to that end, I support it. But the temple of god’s spirit is indeed our very selves as we unite in humility with the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

With this in mind, I see no reason to blindly comply with an implied definition of Tithing. I pay what I consider generously, and not always to the Church, but always to the Lord, and when so interviewed, I will always honestly say that I pay a full tithe, regardless of how the interviewer defines it for themselves. No interviewer is justified to probe into how I define tithing, although I know they sometimes try.

SD wrote:

The same argument could be made for the one year temple marriage waiting penalty if you get a civil marriage in North America. Thus, forcing me to choose between my native family, and the temple. But that is another matter. There is far too much high stakes compulsion, and that is part of what throws me into the abyss of crisis in the church.

Yes, it is high-stakes compulsion. For those with fully-active, temple-attending families on both sides, a temple sealing in lieu of a wedding is fine. For those who have even one non-temple-attending parent, then I see complete justification for separating the marriage from the sealing. I think it absolutely unfair and wrong that the church requires separation, especially if both husband and wife are temple-worthy. While the church rules are in this unfair state, I would still encourage a marrying couple to consider the feelings of loved ones in deciding what to do. There is no personal reason for rushing into sealing.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

…If I was you, I would embark on an retirement attitude “unfreezing” program aimed at your wife. Also, sit down and talk about what life is like for people who have not planned for retirement.

You are “unfreezing” her attitudes toward retirement….I would focus on that.

Regarding the comment from the EQ person — ignore it. He knows nothing about yoru situation (likely). I had a similar set of responses from people when I kept dating girls and breaking up with them as a YSA because they were not suitable. The comments bothered me, but I told myself “Are THEY going to have to live with these women someday? If the marriage doesnt’ work out, will THEY pick up the alimony or child support payments? The emotional hardship and dislocation? NO”. Same with the people at Church. They know little about your situation and therefore are wholly unqualified to comment on your situation. Ignore them as best you can.

All of this advice is right on, unfortunately we don’t discuss anything any longer. My wife has become way more spiritual than me therefore knows better in all things. We had a marriage counselor a few years ago who helped out with that. Yes, she was a member and recommended to us because of that. I am worn down and tired and just going thru the motions at home and at church.

SilentDawning wrote:

…

Regarding the comment from the EQ person — ignore it. He knows nothing about yoru situation (likely). I had a similar set of responses from people when I kept dating girls and breaking up with them as a YSA because they were not suitable. The comments bothered me, but I told myself “Are THEY going to have to live with these women someday? If the marriage doesnt’ work out, will THEY pick up the alimony or child support payments? The emotional hardship and dislocation? NO”. Same with the people at Church. They know little about your situation and therefore are wholly unqualified to comment on your situation. Ignore them as best you can.

What’s up with people. It’s discouraging.

[Anonymous]

Wow, this is one of the best threads I’ve read on this site.

I’m really trying to learn for myself what things in this church God actually expects of me and what things are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. The way tithing is taught today in our church is one of the latter for me. I’m not interested in toeing any lines I don’t think were put there by God anymore.

Now, how to explain this to my children without causing them to be cast off by their leaders and peers as apostates?

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I don’t feel like the Church puts a real hard sell on tithing, at least in my area. Number of talks in sacrament meeting focusing on tithing in my recent memory: zero. Number of talks focusing on tithing in my stake conferences in recent memory: zero. Number of times the bishop or SP has urged or cajoled the members regarding tithing in recent memory: zero. Number of general conference talks addressing tithing in recent memory: a few.

So at least in my area, the push for tithing is at best a gentle nudge. Of course there’s the subtle pressure applied in the TR interview and tithing settlement every year, and I’m not going to downplay that. But I’ve been in my current ward for two years now and there has yet to be hardly a word mentioned through official channels, talks, etc. regarding tithing.

[Anonymous]

Tumult wrote:

Wow, this is one of the best threads I’ve read on this site.

I’m really trying to learn for myself what things in this church God actually expects of me and what things are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. The way tithing is taught today in our church is one of the latter for me. I’m not interested in toeing any lines I don’t think were put there by God anymore.

Now, how to explain this to my children without causing them to be cast off by their leaders and peers as apostates?

you don’t. Consider the following:

Alma 12:9 wrote:

…It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

As we commence our faith journey as children, we learn a story, and we share in that common story. The story helps us make sense of the world and the need to do what’s right, to come together as families, and to love one another. The story helps us serve one another. The story is like fingers pointing to the moon. The story isn’t the moon, but it points.

At some point, our journey no longer needs the story. We partake of something greater, an insight that the story is just a story, it was never meant to be the real meaning. Yet the real meaning of the story is well beyond the words.

I had a very strange spiritual experience last week. I was in the midst of some conflict I continue to have with the ‘mopologists’, trying to keep them from disparaging those who question “why stay” (They literally call us “anti-christs”, if we question the literal divinity of Christ or the historicity of the book of mormon). I was about to write something that they ought to say to those who struggle, but for some reason, right in the middle of writing my reply, I got banned from the particular forum, and lost my response. Then, I tried writing it again on another forum, and my response got eaten up again. I suddenly realized that the god within me was sending me a message: It isn’t my job to do that. We cannot enlighten another human being with a more excellent way (and I’m speaking specifically of “agape”/Godly Love/charity/1 Cor 13). They have to want it. They have to go through the process. They have to feel it, and when it is time, then the light will go on.

I have never told my children there is or is not a santa claus. At the right time, they figured it out for themselves. we still have fun with santa (who was and always shall be their mom), and continue the ‘story’ of santa, because it means much more to us symbolically. We would, from the time the children were very young, put together a care package for someone in our neighborhood or ward, and play the role of ‘santa’, by delivering it anonymously on Christmas eve to their doorsteps. All of my children are grown, but we still do it, with whomever is home for Christmas. They learned, through our paltry care package, that ‘being santa’ meant something more important than believing in santa.

We grew up with an idea that there was a loving Heavenly Father who cares for us and protects us, and we learned to pray to this person. We were taught that Heavenly Father created the world, and is all powerful, all knowing, all good, and if we just behave, we’ll get what we want. Even better, we’ll earn a glorious mansion in the heavens… then life starts encroaching on our fantasy world. God doesn’t always help. Prayer doesn’t always work. Religions and religious people do bad things. The entire idea that ‘believing in Christ’ might save us seems, at times, a bit like…well…believing in Santa. It’s a great story, but there is another side of that story.

The basic story we are taught in church is “the portion of his word”. It’s the santa story. It’s the milk before meat. But Joseph Smith went a little beyond the milk — he took god out of the heavens, out of the trinity, out of the ex nihilo creator, and proposed that “god is a man—that is the great secret!” He was on a trajectory to realize that god was not the individual being of Elohim (in fact, the name means ‘the gods’), but that god was in all humans who practice god-like qualities.

Consider the following:

Orson Pratt, in the Seer, Volume 1 Nr. 2 wrote:

Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance. Persons are only tabernacles or temples, and TRUTH is the God, that dwells in them. If the fulness of truth, dwells in numberless millions of persons, then the same one indivisible God dwells in them all.

It is truth, light, and love that we worship and adore ; these are the same in all worlds ; and as these constitute God.

Because God dwells in many temples. He frequently speaks to us, as though there were many Gods. … When we speak of a plurality of Gods, let it be distinctly understood, that we have reference alone to a plurality of temples wherein the same truth or God dwells. And also when

we speak of only one God, and state that He is eternal, without beginning or end, and that He is in all worlds at the same instant, let it be distinctly remembered, that we have no reference to any particular person or substance, but to truth dwelling in a vast variety of substances. Wherever you find a fulness of wisdom, knowledge, truth, goodness, love, and such like qualities, there you find God in all His glory, power, and majesty, therefore, if you worship these adorable perfections you worship God.

When Brigham Young saw this, he rejected Orson Pratt’s theology, but BY was neither Prophet (his own admission), nor was he a theologian. When we realize that there is a mystery of godliness, and that this mystery is here and now among us, there is a personal responsibility and power this gives us. But do you really think this is something that you can just give someone? No — it takes time to realize this. It requires the story to get here.

The story teaches us to believe in god…which is a proxy for believing in ourselves, or more particularly, the god within us. When we realize we can believe in god by being god to those who need our help, we realize more of what the gospel really means. The story is only part of the story. The real truth, the truth that must be discovered, is that we are gods to those we serve, not the powerful, all knowing, all good, perfection of being that simply doesn’t exist, but rather, the god of love is here within, when we set aside our egos, our desires, and simply tune in and give of ourselves. This is the real mystery of godliness, the one that must be realized and cannot be taught.

[Anonymous]

I love Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk, “His Hands”. It emphasizes what wayfarer just said, in a way.

Don’t burst any bubbles for your children. I still pay tithing faithfully – but I do it because I want to be a full participant in my religion and share the benefits I get from meetinghouses, temples, subsidized college education, etc, not for some eternal reward. I do it for the communal good in the here and now, not for any individual good in the there and then. I do it for who I believe it helps me to be (a more sharing, caring person) – but I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to feed my children first if it came down to it and if I couldn’t get fast offering assistance from the Church. After all, the Church teaches that my family comes first but the community is important, as well – and I accept that counsel over anything someone else might say when it comes to how I spend my money. I pay tithing gladly and freely, but I don’t do it unthinkingly and blindly.

I pay to “be”, not to “play”.

[Anonymous]

Kumihito: Funny how local interpretations make so much difference. My Bishop is a self admitted zealot and draws hard lines in the sand on every possible subject. I’ve been part of the WC for the past 2+ years (I was just released from my position, so no longer) and it has generally been a very unpleasant room to be in. It doesn’t help that I have a hard time not speaking up when I disagree about things that I think matter. Our relationship is strained right now, to say the least.

Wayfarer: Mind blowing concept, I need to ponder on that for a while.

I am amazed at how much effort people here put into helping one another and I love it. Thank you to all that responded to me and to all that created this superb thread over the past few years.

Ray, I’m going to read “His Hands” tonight.

[Anonymous]

This popped in my new posts. It opened to page 7. I should start at the beginning. It looks to be a good thread.

[Author]

Posts