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SilentDawning wrote:
But I have to come to the Church’s partial defence here (and in a way, I can’t believe I’m writing this) — only to say that the majority of the local leaders, if not all that I have worked with, sincerely believe paying tithing is a gateway to further blessings. The reason I can say this with confidence is that tithing collections are not tied to their personal economic interest.
I read
Extensions of Powerby Michael Quinn, and he describes how tithing evolved historically. It was not consistently collected at one point, and different prophets tried to implement different rules to get the members to pay enough to keep the Church afloat.In the 1950’s they had a financial crisis, and then tithing got even more emphasis. I think the current program of tithing settlement represents the evolution of a Church toward figuring out how to get its fiscal house in order — as permanently as possible. I don’t really blame them for that. However, what little evidence is available suggests their cashflow has outstripped their needs at this point…but how can they go back to saying “you don’t have to pay 10% anymore” or some other less restrictive policy?
Once the system is working, I can see how they would rather not mess with it, change the culture and then potentially have to retrench it again should financial problems result. That is all good SD, and I agree somewhat. BUT, if that is the case, than why did they up the anti last year with the new policy that requires TR worthiness on confirmations and MP ordinations? Does the church really need to do that to “stay afloat?”
cwald wrote:That is all good SD, and I agree somewhat. BUT, if that is the case, than why did they up the anti last year with the new policy that requires TR worthiness on confirmations and MP ordinations? Does the church really need to do that to “stay afloat?”
I think it’s because they sincerely believe that paying tithing and being worthy for a temple recommend is best for the person in the long run. I never have seen the local leaders as necessarily trying to make my life difficult — but I do see them enforcing policies they believe in, but which oftimes causes certain people a lot of anguish. It’s all driven by their belief that it’s all inspired, that they are divinely called, as well as the enforcement that comes through the strong stake presence at the Ward level.
I have to admit — I have never seen this kind of organization, where the priesthood leaders are all members of the STake, reporting to the Stake President, and being on a dotted line to the Bishop. It sure does represent the long arm of oversight on a scale I don’t normally see in industry. I remember in my PPI’s, I would feel loyal to the Stake President first and foremost because he was my direct line.
If I had a direct line to the Bishop, then I would have been far more cautious..however, lest I get off track, I see the emphasis at the Ward level on tithing as a result of the local leader’s testimonies, the power of the CHI, and the structure of the Church which puts strong oversight onto the Ward leaders.
Now, at the very top, I also believe these men think it’s best for people to hold a temple recommend, and have faith that if people will just pay it, things will go well. I don’t think they are out to deceive anyone, although I do think at times the policies can be way ego-centric to the Church.
It can be viewed as a membership fee in many ways, if a person chooses to look at it that way. “Pay tithing to be worthy to enter the temple for ordinances that can provide a promise of exalting value.” Some can look at that as paying for blessings, but its not really the same thing in my mind, because the blessings come from the personal relationship with God…the temple ordinances just provide a symbolic medium to convey those principles…they don’t provide assurances of blessings of any kind. I believe a full-tithe payer endowed in the temple could be damned, and an unendowed non-tithe payer can be exalted, depending on the other experiences in their life that the Judge of our souls will determine righteously.
A person can pay 0% tithing, and still have spiritual experiences with God (albeit outside the temple), or a person can pay 100% tithing and not receive blessings (which was my experience).
In addition, paying tithing is not the only membership fee…they require much more (WoW, activity, profession of testimony, etc). So in many ways, paying money alone won’t let you play either…you have to pay the fee, and live the lifestyle, and believe it all…to play.
So I can see Cadence’s argument, and can understand how it viewed “pay to play” on a simplistic level…but to me that argument is lacking because there isn’t a direct correlation to paying tithing and receiving exaltation or even receiving any blessing at all.
As a side note…I visited a local Christian denomination a few weeks back, and the entire 25 min sermon was about the need for members to give money to the ministry to further God’s work…that the prior months of donations were weak, and the people needed to reach deeper into their hearts and pay for the pastors salary or he will not be able to provide for his family. It was a disappointing sermon.
I guess we have to pick our poison…passing the plate and being preached to openly about giving, or privately donating to our church and being told the standard for temple worthiness is 10% of income and the choice is ours to obey or not.
Heber13 wrote:
As a side note…I visited a local Christian denomination a few weeks back, and the entire 25 min sermon was about the need for members to give money to the ministry to further God’s work…that the prior months of donations were weak, and the people needed to reach deeper into their hearts and pay for the pastors salary or he will not be able to provide for his family. It was a disappointing sermon.I guess we have to pick our poison…passing the plate and being preached to openly about giving, or privately donating to our church and being told the standard for temple worthiness is 10% of income and the choice is ours to obey or not.
This is my point exactly. This church was up front with what the money was needed for and asked out of true need. I was not there but did they say if you did not pay you would be denying yourself and family of gods blessings, and your standing in the church would be diminished? Personally I would rather deal with this scenario and stare reality in the face than be coerced into paying by indirect means.
SilentDawning wrote:cwald wrote:Now, at the very top, I also believe these men think it’s best for people to hold a temple recommend, and have faith that if people will just pay it, things will go well. I don’t think they are out to deceive anyone, although I do think at times the policies can be way ego-centric to the Church.
I agree. Maybe I am speaking in the abstract. I am not saying the leaders are greedy and just want money, but they are perpetuating a system that seems broken to those paying. It works wonderfully for the church however.
Ultimately members are free to choose to pay or not. The church will probably just continue to walk the line between requiring payment and not killing the goose that laid the golden egg by asking to much.
Cadence wrote:…To me it is so obvious in your face.
Give us the money or else.I am jaded to the point that I can not see what benefit is derived from paying tithing in the amounts the church wants. It smells to me that you have to pay for exaltation(temple participation) Now you have to pay to participate in any ordinances…It just seems so ludicrous to me that your standing and your “exaltation” is dependent on paying up…I admit when I was TBM I was relentless about tithing. I was sure I would lose my job or the house would burn down if I did not pay up. I took great pride in writing out that big check at the end of the year and handing it overto the ward clerk. Look at me!!! I could have bought a boat or car but no I am giving you the money. Now the thought of tithing settlement makes me queasy. It seems so much like extortion… Personally, I don’t think Church leaders really care that much about how much money they collect for the sake of the Church and it looks to me like they are mostly just repeating the same old doctrines they have inherited from previous generations. Sure they sometimes act in a manipulative way about it but I think this is more about fear that members that don’t pay a full tithe are supposedly in spiritual danger so they want to do whatever they can to encourage members to do what they assume is right for their own good (I.E. “we know what’s best for you”).
Actually, I’m not convinced that it is even in the Church’s best interest long-term to demand this much money from the average follower because for every member that actually pays a full tithe there will be many that leave or never join the Church primarily because of this and/or a few other expected sacrifices they don’t want to deal with. What good is all this money they don’t really know what to do with to sincere TBM leaders if the number of followers dwindles and the Church becomes increasingly irrelevant worldwide? If greed was really their primary motivation I don’t think they would be building all these new temples so close to each other when they could just as easily ask people to drive 20 minutes instead and it looks to me like what is really going on is that they are desperately trying to bring their vision of salvation to as many people as possible.
I don’t have a problem with the idea of some membership fees or donations in general but I think the amount they are currently asking for is completely outrageous. Sure it doesn’t sound that bad in primary because if you have a dollar then maybe 10 cents doesn’t seem like all that much in comparison to what you have left if you give it up but in reality once people pay for their rent/mortgage, taxes, car payments, groceries, and other bills then 10% of gross or even net income is a relatively huge amount for most people nowadays. Another thing that bothers me about the way the Church teaches tithing is the superstitious idea that if you just have faith to pay your tithing first everything will magically work out for the best. What happens if it doesn’t work that way? It seems like Church leaders haven’t even considered the possibility that this could lead to some serious unnecessary hardship for an increasing number of members.
Regarding the amount to be given being completely outrageous — I guess that depends on your perspective….I know some people really struggle to save 10% of their income, so for those people, paying tithing would wipe out their savings. People, on the other hand, who have dual incomes and save one in its entirety would not find it as much of a sacrifice. In a way, expecting everyone to pay 10% across the board doesn’t really invoke the spirit of the widow’s mite — you might find there are some whose income is so low that only 5% would be more of a sacrifice than 20% for other people. And in that sense the 5% payer may be making the greater sacrifice…
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
If greed was really their primary motivation I don’t think they would be building all these new temples so close to each other when they could just as easily ask people to drive 20 minutes instead and it looks to me like what is really going on is that they are desperately trying to bring their vision of salvation to as many people as possible.Tithing is exactly why they build temples. It is proven the closer members are to temple the more likely they are to pay tithing. The thing is I do not think the leaders even connect the dots. Like you say they believe they are bringing salvation. But I can promise you if there were not going to be funds to support the temple it would not be built.
wayfarer wrote: Quote:The point is that there are a lot of reasons for which ‘zero’ is an acceptable, full tithe, and it’s none of anybody’s business what the personal circumstances are.I have known people who have gone bankrupt, lived on welfare, food stamps, support payments, etc & paid ‘zero’ tithing. It was acceptable to the church & they received the full benefits as a President of a Corporation who paid 10% on the gross. Without sounding too political, it sounds like a “flat” tax. I’m sorry. I couldn’t help myself.
My last point is, for the many years I’ve been inactive, no one has come to our house to preach “damnation” because we weren’t active or tithe payers. Maybe they should of. I’m glad they didn’t. The question that I have is: if I decide to become active again, how do I repent? How would I ever make restitution for the years I didn’t tithe?
Interesting topic. One you could never raise in church.
Mike from Milton.
Mike, I think to repent, you start paying tithing and meet with the bishop to say going forward you want to live this commandment. That should do. But I’m not positive, as I’ve never been bishop.
Cadence wrote:But I can promise you if there were not going to be funds to support the temple it would not be built.
I’m not sure the Hawaii temple proves that out…but more likely since that 5th temple most of the others that are being built seem to support that idea.
Let me ask another question about tithing…I have heard bishops will sometimes ask a family to be faithful, pay the full-tithe and if they are unable to make ends meet, the ward’s Fast Offering funds can be provided to help the family be faithful with tithing. Do they still do that? Has anyone heard of that being done? It kind of seems to support they are doing it for a purpose rather than for money collections if they really teach that…unless they go for the long-term money commitment even if the short-term help is needed? I don’t know…anyone else know about that scenario?
Mike wrote:, how do I repent? How would I ever make restitution for the years I didn’t tithe?
repentence=change. there is no need for payment of back tithing. after determining the way you want to pay it, start paying it regularly. once you start paying with the intention to continue, you’ve repented and are a full tithe payer.some people pay as “income” comes in, others pay lump sum at settlememt. to declare full tithe at settlement, I think there is an assumption that it is a full tithe for the year, but no specific questions will be asked.
Heber13 wrote:Let me ask another question about tithing…I have heard bishops will sometimes ask a family to be faithful, pay the full-tithe and if they are unable to make ends meet, the ward’s Fast Offering funds can be provided to help the family be faithful with tithing. Do they still do that? Has anyone heard of that being done? It kind of seems to support they are doing it for a purpose rather than for money collections if they really teach that…unless they go for the long-term money commitment even if the short-term help is needed? I don’t know…anyone else know about that scenario?
i have seen that as well. when someone is at the edge, a commitment to pay in the future is both burdensome to them and not very credible. i think a lot of bishops focus on tithing worthiness as a prequal for ongoing support for a number of reasons, including evidence of commitment.when someone needs financial help, the BP and RSP sit with the family to walk thru their budget — a financial needs statement, making recommendations as to what changes the family can make to improve their situation. the first expense line item is “tithing”, and that is expected to be nonzero. if the bottom line is negative after working through the income and expenses including tithing, then help is provided temporarily. there needs to be a plan to get whole.
Quote:I have heard bishops will sometimes ask a family to be faithful, pay the full-tithe and if they are unable to make ends meet, the ward’s Fast Offering funds can be provided to help the family be faithful with tithing. Do they still do that? Has anyone heard of that being done? It kind of seems to support they are doing it for a purpose rather than for money collections if they really teach that…unless they go for the long-term money commitment even if the short-term help is needed? I don’t know…anyone else know about that scenario?
Yes, I have seen this happen. I asked our Bishop about this when I was HPGL.
Personally, I don’t like it.
I think it pits your self-reliance against the law of tithing, and personally, I feel self-reliance in dire circumstances should come first — not tithing. Paying tithing, and then getting a food order means you are beholden to the Church, and often, they will then expect you to put in some labor around the chapel or go work at the storehouse since you are receiving assistance. So, not only are you strugglign to make ends meet, you have this extra stressor of work assignments.
It’s too much “organization first” for me…. I’ve had a couple expereinces where I’ve come to the Church for help on
non-welfareissues, related to serving a mission, and an adoption. Both experiences were REALLY harsh on the Church end; I don’t see the Church as being benevolent in situations where members need help…I personally would rather have the money in the bank available for emergencies. Now, we did help a few people get through some tough times when I was a leader in the Ward, often we did not as they just took the money and ran — so it cuts both ways… But overall, I would rather have the confidence of knowing that I was able to sustain my family without outside assistance first, before giving it all away to the Church and then having to come to them, lay my financial situation bare, be subject to their judgments about the appropriateness of my lifestyle, etcetera.
And we know it’s only short-term assistance — they aren’t there to solve chronic problems either, or sustain you through extended periods of time — they are there for short-term help only, so the extent of the help is limited.
Quote:How would I ever make restitution for the years I didn’t tithe?
As wayfarer said, you don’t. Newly baptized members don’t have to pay back tithing on what they earned prior to joining the Church. Same concept for members returning to activity. Some Bishops go beyond the mark, but it’s not what the Church actually teaches.
SD, we’ve had the tithing and assistance discussion before. I’ve received assistance on more than one occasion, and it meant a lot to me to continue to pay tithing while receiving assistance to pay everything else. In the end, my needs were met, so it wasn’t theoretical for me. It gave me a sense of still contributing to the organization that was helping me, even though, at that time, I was the widow giving her mite. As to a clash between tithing in that situation and self-reliance, remove the opportunity to contribute, and I believe you remove true self-reliance.
I know our perspectives are different about that, but I wouldn’t dismiss the power of paying tithing while receiving assistance. (“Offerings” are different, imo – since they are to given “out of your abundance”.)
It sounds as if the experience was positive for you — so, I wouldn’t discourage it in you should this happen again. On the other hand, I have a hard time repudiating my own experiences. I don’t know what it is, but on all the important matters in the Church — my mission, temple marriage, children, it has been a very hard struggle with strange obstacles and surprising reactions from Church leaders who were in a position to contribute positively in even non-monetary ways — but delivered bad news, harshly delivered.
I know that if I ever run into financial difficulties, go to the Church for help, and find they show the same business like and indifferent attitudes they have shown in the past — it would be the end of me. Notwithstanding the spiritual experiences I’ve had. The experiences were very trying (to put it mildly) and juxtaposed my belief in this divine organization with the a face of egocentric and primarily temporal organization — do they really believe everything they say over the pulpit on Sunday?
At the same time, I recognize that others may not have had the same experiences, and so for them, approaching the Church for help may not carry the same risks or consequences. In that case, more power to them — if it brings them peace, then great.
For some reason, the idea of ‘at least I’m contributing’ doesnt’ seem to carry much weight with me anymore though. I won’t turn that into a debate, suffice to say, I’m comfortable with not contributing a lot right now. The Church will have to deal with it until I come around again. The SP and BP are big boys. In the end, its between myself and the Lord….He knows my situation better than most if not all priesthood leaders.
And I like the partnership concept. I don’t think we’ll ever hear that preached over the pulpit, but someone here said that when the partnership isn’t working, when there is no support after great sacrifices and commitment have been shown, there may well be modifications to the partnership…
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