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Heber13 wrote:
Roy, good comments.
What is your take on this quote from Gospel Principles and how the Church is teaching us about the blessings of tithing:
Quote:The blessings we have been promised are both material and spiritual. If we give willingly, Heavenly Father will help us provide for our daily needs of food, clothes, and shelter. Speaking to Latter-day Saints in the Philippines, President Gordon B. Hinckley said that if people “will accept the gospel and live it, pay their tithes and offerings, even though those be meager, the Lord will keep His ancient promise in their behalf, and they will have rice in their bowls and clothing on their backs and shelter over their heads. I do not see any other solution. They need a power greater than any earthly power to lift them and help them”
(“Inspirational Thoughts,” Ensign, Aug. 1997, 7). My take on this is that it’s a bit misdirected. The basic needs of food and shelter to Church members are met through fast offerings — not tithing. If everyone paid generous fast offerings, THEN no one would go hungry, as there would money enough to go around.
Tithes, on the other hand, go to fund the operations of the Church, not help the poor.
This is what gets me — the scriptures are replete with the idea that people who do not share their substance with the poor are not Christ’s disciples. Howevever, for some reason, fast offerings, not tithing, are optional in the Church. You can be a selfish person when it comes to helping the poor and needy yet it has no impact on temple worthiness if you are paying the Church tithing. There is no “fast offering settlement” either. But if you don’t pay tithing to fund the Church operations, you’re denied a TR, certain callings, and you have to go through the uncomfortable tithing settlement process.
At one time I thought of paying my tithes entirely in the form of a fast offering and paying no tithing whatsoever — particularly since i think the Church doesn’t need all that tithing. But “the poor you will always have with you” so there will ongoing neeeds to help the poor.
Roy wrote:So yes Heber, I do not agree with the interpretation given in the paragraph you shared.
I think pretty much the same as how you responded. To be fair, the Gospel Principles manual I quoted that from was the end of the chapter. The whole previous sections of the chapter talk about the willingness to sacrifice and thank God, and doing it for the right reasons…all stuff I agreed with. It was then at the end they finish the chapter with promises of blessings to paying tithes and offerings, and I felt the same way about that paragraph as you did.
Its probably the same sticking point I here from cwald and Cadence…the concepts and teachings of giving of your money are all good…its when the specifics are drawn in the sand that it must by 10% of income to the Church’s funds to build buildings that is the measuring stick for “worthiness” to enter the temple or hold a calling, is what gets sticky.
Kind of like what SD is saying:
SilentDawning wrote:But if you don’t pay tithing to fund the Church operations, you’re denied a TR, certain callings, and you have to go through the uncomfortable tithing settlement process.
(except I think the “uncomfortable” part of a settlement is up to you.
Heber13 wrote:Kind of like what SD is saying:
SilentDawning wrote:But if you don’t pay tithing to fund the Church operations, you’re denied a TR, certain callings, and you have to go through the uncomfortable tithing settlement process.
(except I think the “uncomfortable” part of a settlement is up to you.
We decided not to go. In a way, the sometimes poor quality leadership that comes with our part-time leaders has its blessings. Our current Bishop is not very well liked by a lot of people. They talk about it openly…and he’s deeply offended my wife a few times to the point she doesn’t feel she can support him….so, he let her TR expire and decided not to pay tithing for a while. Her logic is that if she can’t answer the supporting local leaders question, then why pay the tithing since ther will be no TR?
Frankly, this shows how the forced tithing concept — tying payment or non-payment tithing to immediate consequences supplants the true motive we should have for paying tithing — charitable nature.
SilentDawning wrote:
Tithing and the Poor, Middle Class and WealthyRegarding my comment earlier that a 10% flat tithing requirement is harder on the poor than the wealthy, a financial clerk friend of
mine told me it’s upper middle class people who don’t pay tithing the most — at least, this was true 10 years ago in the Ward he attended.
The poor were more likely to pay it, he said. I think it’s definitely easier for the really wealthy as they can still have their lifestyle and financial security, while still paying tithing. Also, there is a social “should” that the wealthy should be sharing their wealth to benefit others — so you get the Gates Foundation and social consience efforts from the wealthy that are expected given their huge sums of money. Tithing fits that social requirement pretty well, satisfying the demands of social conscience, and making one worthy at the same time.
I have heard this before that the poor are more faithful tithe payers. I have a theory on this. It is much like lottery tickets. The majority of lottery tickets are purchased by those who can least afford them. They are the ones looking for a life changing event, and no matter the odds they take a stab at winning something big and sacrifice groceries or other necessities to take the gamble. I would assume that the poor pay tithing in the same way. They are more desperate to get some kind of relief. Believing in blessing upon payment of tithing gives them that comfort. The wealthy on the other hand are not in need of any monetary blessings hence poor tithing performance. Not to say there are not wealthy members paying tithing but I think as a percentage they have fewer full tithe payers. Of course I have nothing to back any of this up just anecdotal evidence.
Lottery…interesting. That could be very applicable. The literal blessings of tithing may be as real as a jackpot. It is not that they do not ever happen, and could even be said they are guaranteed to happen to somebody. But the chances the literal blessing of tithing will be realized by me might be the same as me winning the lottery. So the cost to payout ratio does not make a strong case for why I should pay tithing (sorry, Gospel Principles). There needs to be some other reason to obey this law.
The answer is deep testimony of the principle. I think one of the reasons so many of us gripe about it as that we’ve lost that testimony. I personally tend to view the church as a temporal organization, so naturally, expecting huge sums of money without accountability or even a reasonable trickle-down effect to make programs good doesn’t hold much water with me. I suppose if I had a stronger testimony, or still believed in the kind of Church I was led to believe as an early investigator, I would look at it differently.
But I don’t.
Until leaders act with greater reciprocity to committed, good-hearted members, until the Church as an organization truly shows respect and kindness toward those who make huge sacrifices for the good of the organization, and until there is greater consideration of the needs of individuals when they are in conflict with the growth of the LDS Church, stories such as these must be told…
Speaking of tithing I had all the intention of not attending settlement and telling the word clerk when he called thank you but I will not be setting an appointment. Then I find out today they spoke to my wife and she graciously accepted a meeting for tomorrow after church. Now I have to make the effort to cancel the meeting. I am starting to think it is a hard course to take to try and stay a member and participate and be true to your own self. Cadence, come down with a 24-hour cold if you don’t want to go and didn’t make the appointment. :shh: :shh: Our settlement is in two weeks, but it’s easy for me.
Cadence wrote:Speaking of tithing I had all the intention of not attending settlement and telling the word clerk when he called thank you but I will not be setting an appointment. Then I find out today they spoke to my wife and she graciously accepted a meeting for tomorrow after church. Now I have to make the effort to cancel the meeting. I am starting to think it is a hard course to take to try and stay a member and participate and be true to your own self.
And if you don’t go, but your wife does, you may find the Bishop starts asking your wife about YOU and your own commitment — and then you’ve lost control of your relationship with the Church. That happened to me a while ago. Member of the Bishopric pulled my wife aside asking about why I’m so much less committed lately. And she came out with all kinds of things that were presented in a blunt, non-diplomatic way.
Strange how you can be an active member of the Ward, yet they go behind your back when they could easily talk to you in person or pull you aside.
Old-Timer wrote:Cadence, come down with a 24-hour cold if you don’t want to go and didn’t make the appointment.
:shh: :shh: Our settlement is in two weeks, but it’s easy for me.
Lucky for me church and all meetings were canceled today. The whole stake is spending the day cleaning up the area after the wind damage on Thursday. I am home for some quick lunch right now and am heading back out. Best Sunday I have had in some time.
cwald wrote:Well, I disagree with you disagree
🙂 ….Flat tax and flat tithing is a horrible and unjust system, IMO. It makes absolutely no sense to me, and the whole proportionate thing really sticks it to the poor. Sure, the rich will pay a lot more in tithing overall, but they aren’t sacrificing the basics of life to do so, like the single mom with six kids making 35,000 a year will have to do.
The obvious way round that, is to emphasise the “increase” part. If a single mother makes 35,000 a year, then I believe what she spends on essential utility bills, essentials for the children, and other non-luxury items, should all be
deductiblefrom that increase. If I make 35K pa and have no kids, and no rent/mortgage, then I do not believe I should pay the same tithing as the single mom on 35K with six kids.
If it’s thought out that way, then I believe tithing is fair at a flat rate. If we both pay the same tithing, because we start with 35K that’s wrong.
I pay off my electricity, phone, and tax before I pay my tithing.
I agree with Sam Bee. Pay on the amount that seems right to you — your increase. Whatever that means. A couple years ago I did a lot of thinking about tithing b here at StayLDS, and after reading Michael Quinn’s extensions of power, learning about the history of tithing, looking at the 1800’s definition of the word “increase” and considering what it would take for me to feel good about tithing, I think this approach makes sense for some people. Ultimately, it’s a personal choice. And if someone feels the greatest peace from paying 11% of their gross, then I would support them in it. If others no longer see the benefits of tithing given the lack of gospel peace in their life, lack of blessings, deep financial needs that would be neglected for long periods of time if they pay tithing first, after sincerely trying, then I invite them to:
“worship according to the dictates of their own conscience”.
Ultimately, this is between you and the Lord.
SilentDawning wrote:Ultimately, this is between you and the Lord.
Really? My SP doesn’t think so.
Ultimately, when it comes to participation and callings, and temple “exaltation” in the LDS church, it’s between you and your Bishop/Stake President. God has nothing to do with it.
Oh you silly Idealists here at StayLDS.
SamBee wrote:The obvious way round that, is to emphasise the “increase” part. If a single mother makes 35,000 a year, then I believe what she spends on essential utility bills, essentials for the children, and other non-luxury items, should all be
deductiblefrom that increase. If I make 35K pa and have no kids, and no rent/mortgage, then I do not believe I should pay the same tithing as the single mom on 35K with six kids.
If it’s thought out that way, then I believe tithing is fair at a flat rate. If we both pay the same tithing, because we start with 35K that’s wrong.
I pay off my electricity, phone, and tax before I pay my tithing.
Once again – “you silly idealists…”
🙂 cwald wrote:SilentDawning wrote:Ultimately, this is between you and the Lord.
Really? My SP doesn’t think so.
Ultimately, when it comes to participation and callings, and temple “exaltation” in the LDS church, it’s between you and your Bishop/Stake President. God has nothing to do with it.
Oh you silly Idealists here at StayLDS.
it must be that your COJCOLDS of cache valley must be different than the one I sometimes go to in Virginia, when I’m on this side of the globe. DW and I went to Tithing Settlement last night. None of the three in the room cared what the amount was or how it was calculated. It’s pretty simple: FT Y/N? Y. How’s your family Bishop…? Great. When are you going back to India…I have no clue why it needs to be more complicated than this.
I don’t believe in going into details. Ever. Does that make me a silly idealist?
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