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I agree with WayFarer — where you get into trouble is going into details. I think if you feel confident about your decision with the Lord then you just need to answer without guile to the priesthood leader. But I see where cWald is coming from….sometimes you get leaders who are too far into it. Had one Bishop that stood up and went into tithing and how to calculate it in minute detail. Totally out of line.
For most of the gospel, people only know what you tell them or what you let them see.
SilentDawning wrote:I agree with WayFarer — where you get into trouble is going into details. I think if you feel confident about your decision with the Lord then you just need to answer without guile to the priesthood leader.
But I see where cWald is coming from….sometimes you get leaders who are too far into it. Had one Bishop that stood up and went into tithing and how to calculate it in minute detail. Totally out of line.
For most of the gospel, people only know what you tell them or what you let them see.
Did the bishop audit your books in order to confirm that you paid a full tithe? We had one bishop a few years back that was so pedantic that he had to give a sermon during Tithing Settlement. In the end, it still got down to ‘is this a full tithe’, and the answer is ‘yes’.I am wondering, really, if I don’t volunteer any information, whether any bishop has the right to audit my books?
wayfarer wrote:SilentDawning wrote:I agree with WayFarer — where you get into trouble is going into details. I think if you feel confident about your decision with the Lord then you just need to answer without guile to the priesthood leader.
But I see where cWald is coming from….sometimes you get leaders who are too far into it. Had one Bishop that stood up and went into tithing and how to calculate it in minute detail. Totally out of line.
For most of the gospel, people only know what you tell them or what you let them see.
Did the bishop audit your books in order to confirm that you paid a full tithe? We had one bishop a few years back that was so pedantic that he had to give a sermon during Tithing Settlement. In the end, it still got down to ‘is this a full tithe’, and the answer is ‘yes’.
I am wondering, really, if I don’t volunteer any information, whether any bishop has the right to audit my books?
No, I’ve never had a Bishop audit books or ask for T-4/W-2 documentation. Do they have the “right” to do that? I suppose as the inspired leader in the Ward, they could ask for that if they wished. My SP insisted that I give him a signed statement from the bank indicating I had paid off all student loans in full before he would even consider my missionary application.
However, if a Bishop did that…he would lose my vote. AT times, the Church has made policies that are invasive — and then retracted them. I would view this policy as one of those kinds of policies. They need to be careful about stuff like that in my view. There are the uber-committed members who would do it without questions — but what about the fringe? And does it give members the “right” to start demanding greater accountability and audits of our own books as a Church if they get THAT pedantic about making sure you pay a full tithe?
wayfarer wrote:I am wondering, really, if I don’t volunteer any information, whether any bishop has the right to audit my books?
Well, if you go from paying several thousand dollars a year in tithing, to just a couple thousand, and you have the same job, a public employee job where everyone know how much you make…..and your SP calls SLC to get your tithing record history…..
And yes, Wayfarer, you are an idealists. “We are all idealists down here.”
cwald wrote:wayfarer wrote:I am wondering, really, if I don’t volunteer any information, whether any bishop has the right to audit my books?
Well, if you go from paying several thousand dollars a year in tithing, to just a couple thousand, and you have the same job, a public employee job where everyone know how much you make…..and your SP calls SLC to get your tithing record history…..And yes, Wayfarer, you are an idealists. “We are all idealists down here.”
Really? I thought i was more of a pragmatist/realist than idealist, but i guess it depends upon which personality disorder I put on for the day.I wish I knew your story better, but it isn’t my business, so I’m not askin’. After over five decades in the church, I haven’t seen an example like you’re mentioning, and I think I’ve had enough leadership positions to witness some. Most of the BPs I’ve known don’t want to get in the details because they’re as uncomfortable asking the questions as I am about answering them. I would hope you agree that an anecdote in a church full of wacky humans doesn’t necessarily become a rule, does it?
Heck, I could be totally wrong.
Let me play out a hypothetical arrangement here. Assume that I went from 7K/year to 2K per year in tithing, same job, public, whatever.
I go in, it’s two thousand on the books, and the bishop asks the required question, “Is this a full tithe?”
I answer, “Yes it is”.
Technically, he isn’t supposed to ask more questions. But hey, he’s a true blue that believes he needs to validate my answer. why would he go to SLC to get my tithing records, unless I told him, ‘I pay direct to church HQ’. If he suspected I was lying, then, if SLC said they have nothing from me, then I suppose he’s justified. But I’ve been suggesting that I don’t lie on this. I pay what i think is right, and that’s it.
So, back to my scenario, he says, “But wayferer, you paid 7,000 last year, and only 2,000 this year. How is that a full tithe? I mean you have the same pubic job don’t you?”
Do you REALLY think he’d ask that question? I don’t, but I trust you, so if you say he would, let’s go with it.
In response, I say, “Bishop, I am fully aware of the tithing principle, and I pay one-tenth of all my interest annually, according to scripture. I have prayerfully looked at my financial situation, and this represents my decision as to what I owe the Lord this year as a full tithe.”
What does the bishop do then? what CAN he do?
So, to take it one step further, he asks, “But wayfarer, your income as a public service employee is $70,000. How is $2,000 one tenth of your income?”
I say, “Bishop, I don’t think it’s appropriate to delve into my personal financial details — All I can say is that I have prayerfully looked at my financial situation, and this represents my decision as to what I owe the Lord this year as a full tithe.”
cwald, I’m honestly confused as to why the simple, direct, and honest answer as I’ve noted above would cause the Bishop or SP to take action. I’m looking for your clarity here — and I’m interested because I feel strongly that my personal convictions of what I believe on tithing, wow, and other compliance items trump the arbitrary definitions of a leader’s opinion. For any interview, I believe that the right approach is:
1. Know what you believe.
2. Define what complyng with the spirit of the question means to you ahead of time.
3. Be confident in your worthiness
4. Answer the question Y or N according to your own honest self-appraisal.
5. Don’t elaborate.
6. Don’t answer the question they didn’t ask.
7. Don’t try to interpret how they intepret the question.
8. be nice, courteous, humble, grateful for their time and respectful to their position.
Does this make sense? Is this being an idealist?
wayfarer wrote:So, back to my scenario, he says, “But wayferer, you paid 7,000 last year, and only 2,000 this year. How is that a full tithe? I mean you have the same pubic job don’t you?”
All other considerations aside, if he’s going to pull a Clarence Thomas on you, I say it’s time to just walk away.
Seriously, though, I agree. A priesthood leader should be able to accept a simple, straightforward and well-considered ‘yes’ or ‘no’ at face value.
Two people both can be realists and reach very different conclusions – as long as their “reality” has taught them that their views are realistic. Iow, what appears to be idealism to someone in one situation can be realism to another person in a different situation – and one person’s pessimism can be another person’s idealism.
That’s what makes many of these conversations – and life – so interesting.
It’s hard for someone in the trenches to see that, but realism and idealism are completely subjective terms. So, I believe it’s important for people to be as true to their own reality as possible, keeping in mind that what appears to be idealism actually is realism for many others. It’s important not to discount that “idealistic reality”.
Wayfarer. You make PERFECT sense to me, especially in my idealistic world. I’m glad that your REALISTIC world is the same as my idealistic one, because, well, I would never have believed it if it had not happened to me. What you espouse, is the way it should be. In my experience, it’s not the way it works. But, like many here will say (Ray), I do come from a different planet called Cache Valley/Franklin County. Here is my story, if you are truly interested. It’s a long long thread.
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456” class=”bbcode_url”> cwald wrote:Wayfarer. You make PERFECT sense to me, especially in my idealistic world. I’m glad that your REALISTIC world is the same as my idealistic one, because, well, I would never have believed it if it had not happened to me. What you espouse, is the way it should be. In my experience, it’s not the way it works. But, like many here will say (Ray), I do come from a different planet called Cache Valley/Franklin County.
Here is my story, if you are truly interested. It’s a long long thread.
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456” class=”bbcode_url”> Yep — I will never deny Cwald the perspective given by his life experiences. The same could happen to each of us in the hands of leaders that have a wordview that doesn’t preclude the production of tithing records to prove one’s worthiness. That is another angle that one needs to be conscious of — and to manage in their relationship with the Church.
wayfarer, I like the way you think. Especially the steps outlined 1 thru 8.
Everything starts with #1:
Quote:Know what you believe.
I don’t have the recent experience that most of you do but, I remember when I was a Financial Clerk tithing $ on a reportor piece of paper are only numbers to most Bishops. The Bishops I’ve known don’t try to play detective.
Others may have a different experience.
Mike from Milton.
If I could ask a simple yes or no question referring to the OP. Does current Mormon theology and practice require earthly monetary payment for eventual exaltation? I am not trying to look for a nuanced answer just what your thought is on this simply question. Current Mormon theology and practice require, being the key. A definite YES from this corner.
No – unless you’re a member of the Church. 
cwald wrote:Wayfarer. You make PERFECT sense to me, especially in my idealistic world. I’m glad that your REALISTIC world is the same as my idealistic one, because, well, I would never have believed it if it had not happened to me. What you espouse, is the way it should be. In my experience, it’s not the way it works. But, like many here will say (Ray), I do come from a different planet called Cache Valley/Franklin County.
Here is my story, if you are truly interested. It’s a long long thread.
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2456” class=”bbcode_url”>
ah. now i understand. your situation wasn’t a simple TS or TR, but an investigation about us awful, sinful, apostate, non-TBMers. i think my approach works for those who are essentially icognito, but if you are under suspicion of being an apostate, then they may see the need to investigate vigorously.your story really does put the insanity in perspective.
Cheers!
Ray’s answer is very clever. I’ll answer this way: “No, unless you have an income.” I was recently re-reading Paolo Cohelo’s book The Alchemist, and there is a fascinating exchange near the beginning of the book between the boy (the book’s main character) and Melchizedek. The story has some lessons related to tithing. The boy has had a dream about finding a treasure when Melchizedek appears on the scene. He tells the boy he has succeeded in discovering his Personal Legend. “It’s what you have always wanted to accomplish.
Everyone, when they are young, knows what their Personal Legend is. At that point in their lives, everything is clear and everything is possible. They are not afraid to dream, and to yearn for everything they would like to see happen to them in their lives. But, as time passes, a mysterious force begins to convince them that it will be impossible for them to realize their Personal Legend. . . It’s a force that appears to be negative, but actually shows you how to realize your Personal Legend. It prepares your spirit and your will, because there is one great truth on this planet: whoever you are, or whatever it is that you do, when you really want something, it’s because that desire originated in the soul of the universe. It’s your mission on earth. . . The soul of the world is nourished by people’s happiness. And also by unhappiness, envy, and jealousy. To realize one’s Personal Legend is one’s only real obligation. . . And when you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you achieve it.” Melchizedek asks the boy why he tends sheep, and the boy says he likes to travel. Melchizedek points out a baker in the village and says that man also wanted to travel, but he soon realized that being a baker had more status and he could live a more comfortable life and be more of a desirable husband, so he became a baker, but he still wishes he could travel. He concludes: “In the long run,
what people think about shepherds and bakers becomes more important for them than their own Personal Legends.” Melchizedek tells the boy he must pay him one-tenth of his flock in order to learn about the treasure he seeks. The boy counters with: “What about one-tenth of my treasure?” The old man looked disappointed. “
If you start out by promising what you don’t even have yet, you’ll lose your desire to work toward getting it.” The boy takes several days to decide, and eventually he sells his entire flock except the 6 sheep that are one-tenth, and he gives the one-tenth to Melchizedek. “He had to choose between something he had become accustomed to and something he wanted to have.” When he pays the tithing, Melchizedek gives him a Urim & Thummim, one black stone and one white one. He tells the boy to try to make his own decisions, but when he needs help, he can use the stones. Then he tells the boy a final story. There was a boy who wanted to know the secret to happiness so he went to speak to a wise man who lived in a castle on top of a hill. The wise man was very busy, cheerfully conducting the business of the day with the tradesman in the castle, so the man told him to roam freely through the castle until the evening when he could see him. He gave him a spoon filled with oil, and he gave him a task to carry the spoon with him as he roamed, but not to let any of it spill. The boy did as he was told, and in the evening, he returned the oil-filled spoon to the man. Because the boy had been so focused on the spoon, he didn’t notice any of the beauties of the palace or its people. So the man gave him the task for the following day to pay more attention this time, to savor all the beauty he saw and to see all there was to see. The next evening, the boy returned, but the oil had all spilled out. The wise man said: “
The secret of happiness is to see all the marvels of the world, and never to forget the drops of oil on the spoon.” Anyway, sorry for the Reader’s Theatre, but I do think there are some interesting lessons here that apply to tithing. I’ve said elsewhere that I think it’s very important to be able to let go of our possessions, which I do feel is a correct principle of tithing. The book illustrates a few reasons why this actually results in higher blessings. In the story, even though the boy quits being a shepherd to chase after his dream of treasure, he finds new ways to make money and friends along the way. Letting go of one thing leads to seeing a new opportunity. Anyway, these are parables, so more than one interpretation applies, but I thought I’d share.
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