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I think both of your two’s answers are evasive and apolegetic. It sound like something a lawyer would say to protect their client. But, whatever.
cwald – I think a sense of humor is required to appreciate what we are saying. 
OK. I guess I just don’t have a sense of humor when it comes to this issue. It’s personal.
Here is something I found interesting regarding this subject, and wondered what all ya’ll think. As I was subbing in a ward council meeting recently the subject came up about the number of endowed ward members without a temple rec and how that number could be decreased and temple attendance for these members increased (a relatively common topic among WC’s everywhere in the church, I suspect). The kind bishop, without divulging particulars, mentioned that the number one stumbling block for that particular subset of members was tithing and that they were generally completely worthy in every other way. Some newbie piped up and asked what the requirement was for “paying tithing”… what did the handbook say regarding the duration one had to pay in order to answer that temple rec question in the affirmative? The bishop mentioned that the handbook didn’t specify, but said it has been the direction of the stake that members should be paying tithing for 6 months prior to receiving a recommend. Well, the newbie suggested, the easy way to solve the problem and get that subset of members to receive the blessings of the temple again would be to forget about the stake directive and just keep asking that question until you got the affirmative answer. That opinion was not received with much joyfulness, though it did get some quizzical looks.
What do you think? Are we asking for TOO much before we open those temple doors?
Also, if the member being interviewed simply paid his/her tithing prior to their interview, could they not answer affirmatively, regardless of how long it had been since they’d LAST been a full tithe payer? I then wondered what was the point of a tithing settlement? Can’t we assess that by going through the temple rec book and see who has already expressed they are a full tither? I guess there are those who pay tithing, but still do not have a recemmend for whatever reason. There are also those who tithe and aren’t old enough to hold a recommend. But why does the church care about settling tithe if they do not require a full year of tithing prior to entering the temple? MEMBERS should care, because it can be a major tax deduction, but that info can easily be mailed to the members and save the Bishop much time in December. But… why does the CHURCH need this information? Is it part of the business of the church?
Cadence wrote:If I could ask a simple yes or no question referring to the OP. Does current Mormon theology and practice require earthly monetary payment for eventual exaltation? I am not trying to look for a nuanced answer just what your thought is on this simply question.
My honest answer…No.Tithing, like all other earthly commandments, are given to help us develop faith and become more Christ-like. And, like other commandments, have no saving power in and of themselves, but salvation comes in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Personal circumstances may require adaptation, which is why an infinite Atonement levels the playing field for all, and the Great Judge will determine exaltation, as taught in the parable of the laborers in the field.
cwald wrote:I think both of your two’s answers are evasive and apolegetic. It sound like something a lawyer would say to protect their client.
But, whatever.
I agree — too much equivocation.According to current MORMON THEOLOGY and PRACTICE (edited- added for cwald’s benefit…
:lolno: :Q: do we need to pay [tithing] to play [i.e. participate in exaltation]?
A: As members of the church with any income/interest (however you define that) and
the reasonable ability to pay: Yes. Q: Is tithing a scriptural principle, therefore part of ‘what it takes to get into the Celestial Kingdom”?
A: Yes. If you had the ability to pay tithing, and intentionally did not obey, you are not demonstrating with action your faith.
Q: Is sacrifice a scriptural principle, therefore part of what it takes to get into the CK?
A: Yes. If you intentionally withhold your income and are unwilling to make the sacrifice, you’re not demonstrating sacrifice.
Q: Does one have to pay tithing to the LDS church?
A: Yes, if you have income and
the reasonable ability to pay, as a member of the church in good standing desiring a Temple Recommend, you need to. Malachi 3:10 wrote:Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Now to more practical matters:Q: Does the church define a specific way of accounting for tithing?
A: NO
Q: Shouldn’t my tithing go toward ‘giving to the poor’?
A: NO – That would be called ‘offerings’. I would submit that membership in the church receives some benefit by the organization and infrastructure of the church, therefore it is fair that the church use tithing, at least in part, for administration.
Q: Can my donations be split between tithing and other charitable giving in and out of the church?
A: YES – “Tithing” is one thing, “Charitable giving” is another.
Q: Do I need to donate more than 10% of my gross income?
A: NO – it is completely up to you how much you donate. If you define ‘Tithing” as “10% of gross income” and you still want to make charitable contributions, you will obviously exceed 10%, but if you cannot afford this, you are not being wise and following guidance.
This becomes the major point of tithes and offerings, and is most important:
1. The Lord does not require us to run faster than our strength
Mosiah 4:26-27 wrote:And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
2. The Lord requires us to be responsible, to pay for our own household.1 Timothy 5:8 wrote:But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
(I personally do not like the above scripture, but it is what it is.)3. What we pay for tithing, that is, how we define 10%, is our own decision.
CHI 1970 and later wrote:“For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.”
With the above three principles in mind, I feel strongly that how I pay tithing is completely up to me, as long as some definition of “10% of interest” is paid as Tithing to the church. To me, the wise thing to do is to lose the idea of “10% of gross income” as Tithing — the Lord does not need it — poor people need it, and tithing is not principally for the poor. We are given commandments in scripture to give to the poor; therefore my PRIORITY should be charitable giving. My approach is once a reasonable tithe is made, I feel strongly that i should pay as much as I can reasonably afford to charitable giving.Heber13 wrote:Cadence wrote:If I could ask a simple yes or no question referring to the OP. Does current Mormon theology and practice require earthly monetary payment for eventual exaltation? I am not trying to look for a nuanced answer just what your thought is on this simply question.
My honest answer…No.Tithing, like all other earthly commandments, are given to help us develop faith and become more Christ-like. And, like other commandments, have no saving power in and of themselves, but salvation comes in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. Personal circumstances may require adaptation, which is why an infinite Atonement levels the playing field for all, and the Great Judge will determine exaltation, as taught in the parable of the laborers in the field.
This is a nuanced answer. I don’t think you answered the question. “Does current MORMON THEOLOGY and PRACTICE require….”
But that’s okay. I think most people here knows the answer. At least the good folks on this site have the guts to admit it. Can’t imagaine how this would go over at LDS.net.
and Heber, I like your answer. I believe it. But that IS NOT what the current MORMON THEOLOGY and PRACTICE is. But that’s okay.
cwald wrote:This is a nuanced answer. I don’t think you answered the question. “Does current MORMON THEOLOGY and PRACTICE require….”
Thanks for keeping me honest, cwald
But honestly, is it nuanced? Perhaps I’ve become so comfortable with nuancing my faith that I don’t see it as much.
Quote:Does current Mormon theology and practice require earthly monetary payment for eventual exaltation? I am not trying to look for a nuanced answer just what your thought is on this simply question.
Without parsing and getting into it…you pay tithing to go to be able to go to the temple, and to show your faith in obeying commandments.
I believe practice and theology states tithing leads to blessings, not a necessity for exaltation, which is what Cadence asked. Tithing is not a saving ordinance, it is a commandment. I honestly think that is what is taught. Look here:
Quote:Our Father in Heaven is happy when we pay our tithing. He has promised to bless us if we pay it. He has said that He will give us so many blessings we will not know what to do with all of them. He has also said we will not be destroyed with the wicked if we pay our tithing willingly.
Our Father in Heaven will bless us so we can know Him better. He will bless us to know more about the gospel. He will give us more strength to live the teachings of the gospel each day and help our families live the gospel. It also makes Him happy when we help others learn about the gospel.
When we pay our tithing, we learn to manage our money better and be less selfish. We should always first set aside our tithing from our earnings, and then we will find that our Father in Heaven will bless us to be able to manage what is left so we will have enough for our needs.
“Chapter 28: Tithing and Offerings,” Part Seven: Following Jesus ChristYou can nuance or parse what you want out of these lesson manuals, but I never hear it taught it is necessary for exaltation. I hear it taught as a commandment for which we will be blessed. Exaltation only comes through Jesus Christ, after all we can do. That is the theology…straight up.
Please, tell me how I’m wrong so I can learn better if that is not right. I hate to have meaningless answers to direct questions like Cadence asked.
Here is the answer Heber. Does the church teach and practice that baptism, endowment and temple marriage are necessary for exaltation (Celestial Kingdom)?
YES.
The false doctrine and teachings of the LDS church say that one must be baptized, endowed and married in the temple by the Mormon priesthood, and only the Mormon priesthood, to receive exaltation. You cannot do any of those unless you pay tithing. You cannot be endowed and get married in the temple unless you are a “full tithe payer.” If one quits paying tithing and no longer goes to the temple, they fail to “endure to the end.”
Pay to play? Yep, one must now be temple recommend worthy to ordain and give the priesthood to their own kids, and to hold most of the male leadership callings. In order to be TR worthy, one must be a full tithe payer. Pay to play.
So the answer to the simple question is, yes. The current Mormon theology and practice is, “one must pay tithing to receive exaltation.” There really is no way around it.
Once again, I don’t believe it, and you don’t believe it. But that is what the church teaches and practices. It is what it is.
fwitw. I think the church has every right to do the “pay to play.” Whatever – I suppose they can make any rule they want. But they do not have the right to teach the “pay for exaltation.” That is wrong. It’s cultish and manipulative. It’s not what my gods tell me is true. It’s not the kind of thing the gods I know care about.
Quote:If I could ask a simple yes or no question referring to the OP. Does current Mormon theology and practice require earthly monetary payment for eventual exaltation? I am not trying to look for a nuanced answer just what your thought is on this simply question.
No- A broken heart and contrite spirit are required. But Yes, if you are Mormon and have an income, tithing compliance is an outward form of demonstrating an inward change. And yes, we do place an inordinate focus on outward demonstrations.Heber13 wrote:You can nuance or parse what you want out of these lesson manuals, but I never hear it taught it is necessary for exaltation. I hear it taught as a commandment for which we will be blessed. Exaltation only comes through Jesus Christ, after all we can do. That is the theology…straight up.
Please, tell me how I’m wrong so I can learn better if that is not right. I hate to have meaningless answers to direct questions like Cadence asked.
I agree with cwald that the answer is YES. (although his comment about ‘false doctrine’ is a value judgment I’m not willing to make. Although I think the teaching is wrong, I do not know what ‘True Doctrine’ is, and therefore cannot declare something as ‘false doctrine’)With respect, your theology is a bit off here, at least in my humble opinion. Exaltation does not come “through Jesus Christ, after all we can do.” The scripture refers to
salvationin this manner: 2 Ne 25:23 wrote:For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Salvation, as a free gift resulting from the Atonement, enables all [with some very few exceptions] to be resurrected and live in a kingdom of glory, either telestial, terrestrial, or celestial, depending upon one’s obedience to the laws and ordinances appertaining to the kingdom of glory. I would also note that LDS do not pay attention to the grammar of this scripture. “it is by grace we are saved after all we can do” is not a standalone statement. The “for” in “for we know that” means that this is connected to the previous clause. It’s saying “to be reconciled with god, for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all [and independently of what] we can do.” Salvation, the free gift, results from our reconciliation with god and his grace which is freely given to us, and is entirely independendent of ‘all we can do’. Salvation, however, is not exaltation.Exaltation is over and above salvation. Evangelical christians often refer to works as not being necessary at all for salvation, but rather, the works we do in faith contribute to our crown. In current LDS Doctrine, ‘exaltation’, this ‘crown’, is defined in explicit terms as the “Celestial Kingdom”, and in order to achieve the crown of exaltation in the celestial kingdom certain laws, ordinances, and covenants need to be entered into and upheld.
So, although Tithing is not an “ordinance”, it becomes part of three “covenants” of the temple: Obedience, Sacrifice, and Consecration.
I would submit to you that if a member of the church is in a position that s/he can pay tithing as a result of having ‘Interest’ or ‘Income’, then in order to comply with the covenants of obedience, sacrifice, and the Law of Consecration, s/he must pay to comply with his/her covenants in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Whether this compliance is in this life or in the life to come, I’m not sure. I would think that according to the teaching, if you know something should be done, and do not do it, and resisting repenting, you’re going to be held accountable for it.
As for cwald (hypothetical example!
😈 ), or anyone no longer willing to go to the temple or pay tithing, he’ll have to deal with the Terrestial or Telestial kingdom according to current teaching. He’ll still be saved.Personally, I observe that all the church teaching on CK, TK, or TK is speculative theology, institutionalized fiction. The best comment I heard about the afterlife, if there is one, is “There will be a lot of surprises up there…”. that’s what I believe.
I think this is a great thread and great discussion. Something that obviously none of us could have at church, and would scare the crap out of most traditional orthodox members. God bless the internet.
🙂 wayfarer wrote:Personally, I observe that
all the church teaching on CK, TK, or TK is speculative theology, institutionalized fiction.The best comment I heard about the afterlife, if there is one, is “There will be a lot of surprises up there…”. that’s what I believe. As do I. I would say we are LDS “faithful” exceptions, which is why we are here at StayLDS. If this was said at church, this statement would be deemed as absolutely heretical, perhaps even apostate.
wayfarer wrote:With respect, your theology is a bit off here, at least in my humble opinion. Exaltation does not come “through Jesus Christ, after all we can do.”
Wayfarer, I agree Exaltation, or Eternal Life, is the over and above salvation or immortality. But it still only comes through the Atonement.
Quote:Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift (immortality). Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel”
wayfarer wrote:So, although Tithing is not an “ordinance”, it becomes part of three “covenants” of the temple: Obedience, Sacrifice, and Consecration.
Yes, I think that is the distinction in my mind.
So, without parsing or nuancing further on the subject, the bottom answer is
yesthe church teaches you have to pay tithing and a bunch of other things to be worthy live in God’s presence (exaltation) because are current commandments given to us. It would take more nuancing to explain my thoughts how that is just a current earthly thing that leads to the real thing that provides exaltation, which is what I think is the theology and practice. I agree with Roy on how he said it. Broken heart and contrite spirit…that leads to obedience to things like tithing and WoW…so they are connected in our current practice, even if we could debate the theology or meaning behind it. I can think of circumstances where people don’t pay tithing with earthly monetary funds but would still be worthy for Eternal Life…but that is a different discussion, perhaps. Anyway, I think I agree with what is being said, just emphasizing a different angle to try to convey how I feel about it. Thanks.
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