Paying to play

[Anonymous]

I shared the quote from the church news with my wife who said we had a Bishop early in our marriage who said “if the people in this Ward paid on gross they’d be on some kind of welfare program”. He actually said it’s on surplus after expenses over the pulpit. And she said we both rejected the idea out of hand as false doctrine given our years of being taught in the Church….I guess that’s the only time I ever heard it.

Makes tithing much of a more reasonable commitment when you have greater freedom to adapt it to your own circumstances….

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly WF. When I did my own introspection on this two years ago here, I reached the conclusion that the Lord expects us to look after the poor — and the scriptures are far more blunt about that than tithing. The scriptures are replete with this commandment. If this commandment, which, if ignored, disqualifies us as disciples (so the scriptures go), why do we not have “fast offering settlement” instead of tithing settlement? Why are fast offerings not a requirement for temple attendance, and tithing optional?

I actually considered paying all of my tithing as a fast offering a while ago just to make a point — and feel I was doing it right. People here discouraged it as not the program of the Church, but nonetheless, it makes far more sense to me.

I agree, SD.

Just recently, I realized a significant & specific scripture about tithing (which is conveninently left out of LDS topical guide)…

“At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest.” Deut 14:28-29

One year of every 3 years = 1/3. Remember, according to church donctrine, this is the Mosaic law, which is considered the “lower law.” Jesus gave, would give & would instruct others to give much more than 1/3 of tithes to the poor.

How much of church tithes are given to the poor? Any?

[Anonymous]

Excellent point…..I appreciate that scripture….the trump card, however in the LDS theology is that the prophet can override scripture, and that policy can change and grow….but I agree with the principle.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

There is an inherent conflict / opposition in that construct, if you really think about it..

I am hard-pressed to think of more than two religious doctrinal teachings that aren’t inherently conflicted. Some more so than others, of course. In the end, what matters is what works for each individual. While discussing whether or not paying tithing (or performing any other act or ordinance) is required in order to be ‘saved’ is entertaining and beneficial, and may help us see things from a different light, the institutional church will not be changed by it. Yes, ‘we’ are the church, but a fairly small and marginalized minority.

In the ‘BKP prevents the second coming’ thread cwald noted that the church could make things a lot easier for some of us (and arguably for everyone) by giving up on the claim of being the One Source of all truth – which is in itself the most conflicted teaching of all. I agree on many levels, but I know that the church hates a vacuum just as much as nature does, and any such attempts would be met with a flurry of cries of apostasy, attributions to satan and his minions, etc., followed by backfilling and retrenchment The church as we know it wouldn’t be changed appreciably, but the fallout in terms of personal anguish, hurt feelings and confusion would be huge. The end would be the same. At least in my lifetime, I don’t expect there to be any such quantum changes in the way the church does business, and my only choice is to either accept and deal with the church as it is, or not.

Quote:

2 Ne 25:23 wrote:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

For what it’s worth, when I read this, I replace ‘after’ with ‘in spite of’. I think I picked that up from Stephen Robinson. I think it’s entirely reasonable to suggest that that was the original intent, given the vagaries of the English language over time. Anyway, I like it better that way.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Excellent point…..I appreciate that scripture….the trump card, however in the LDS theology is that the prophet can override scripture, and that policy can change and grow….but I agree with the principle.

Regarding tithes going to the poor – there are more trump cards supporting them…

“Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, & with all thy soul, & with all thy mind. This is the first & great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law & the prophets.” -Matt 22:36-40

“He who loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” -1John 4:8

“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren ye have done it unto me…

“Inasmuch as ye have NOT done it unto one of the least of these my brethren ye have NOT done it unto me.”-Matt 25:40,45

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

The Church can continue to insist that the absolute truth is something like 2+2=5 because divine intervention will supposedly make up the difference but what happens when members and investigators suspect these promises will never be fulfilled? The naive attitude most Church leaders have about tithing reminds me of the Martin handcart disaster when members unwisely left for Utah way too late in the year and ended up getting caught in terrible winter weather in Wyoming apparently because of unfounded faith, hope, and assurances that everything would work out alright. Trying harder will not necessarily help much if there are fundamental flaws in the basic plan you are attempting to carry out.

Thanks for putting that into language and POV I can understand.

[Anonymous]

Kipper wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

The Church can continue to insist that the absolute truth is something like 2+2=5 because divine intervention will supposedly make up the difference but what happens when members and investigators suspect these promises will never be fulfilled? The naive attitude most Church leaders have about tithing reminds me of the Martin handcart disaster when members unwisely left for Utah way too late in the year and ended up getting caught in terrible winter weather in Wyoming apparently because of unfounded faith, hope, and assurances that everything would work out alright. Trying harder will not necessarily help much if there are fundamental flaws in the basic plan you are attempting to carry out.

Thanks for putting that into language and POV I can understand.

No problem; that’s what I’m here for. I’m glad you bumped this thread up from obscurity. I had forgotten about it but looking back it is still one of my favorites. What bothers me the most about tithing is that I think it just doesn’t add up in the worst cases so Church leaders are basically counting on divine intervention to make it work and then they will ignore or make excuses for any cases where it doesn’t work out very well.

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Kipper wrote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

The Church can continue to insist that the absolute truth is something like 2+2=5 because divine intervention will supposedly make up the difference but what happens when members and investigators suspect these promises will never be fulfilled? The naive attitude most Church leaders have about tithing reminds me of the Martin handcart disaster when members unwisely left for Utah way too late in the year and ended up getting caught in terrible winter weather in Wyoming apparently because of unfounded faith, hope, and assurances that everything would work out alright. Trying harder will not necessarily help much if there are fundamental flaws in the basic plan you are attempting to carry out.

Thanks for putting that into language and POV I can understand.

No problem; that’s what I’m here for. I’m glad you bumped this thread up from obscurity. I had forgotten about it but looking back it is still one of my favorites. What bothers me the most about tithing is that I think it just doesn’t add up in the worst cases so Church leaders are basically counting on divine intervention to make it work and then they will ignore or make excuses for any cases where it doesn’t work out very well.

In my house my wife takes care of the finances (one of the things I gave into to keep the peace but that’s another issue altogether) and for several years I asked, encouraged and suggested that we pay a few extra mortgage payments a year but we “could never afford it”. However, during my spiritual progress I suggested we start paying tithing and all the sudden we were paying as much to the church as we pay in mortgage…every month. We will never pay this house off before I die. Am I complaining about something that should be on a different board altogether? I can delete this if necessary.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read this whole thread but I just want to say thanks to those who still pay tithing. It provides me with employment. it is my hope that my work is at least somewhat important and relevant.

[Anonymous]

observant wrote:

I haven’t read this whole thread but I just want to say thanks to those who still pay tithing. It provides me with employment. it is my hope that my work is at least somewhat important and relevant.

How does me paying tithing provide you with employment?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

In my house my wife takes care of the finances (one of the things I gave into to keep the peace but that’s another issue altogether) and for several years I asked, encouraged and suggested that we pay a few extra mortgage payments a year but we “could never afford it”. However, during my spiritual progress I suggested we start paying tithing and all the sudden we were paying as much to the church as we pay in mortgage…every month. We will never pay this house off before I die. Am I complaining about something that should be on a different board altogether? I can delete this if necessary.

Are you saying that you had the money all along to make a few mortgage payments? And that it was found when you started paying tithing (meaning you had it all along), so now you are frustrated? That is what I am hearing. You can also construe your statement to mean that after you started paying tithing, you suddenly found your limited dollar stretched….giving a bit of supernaturality to the tithing concept. Can you clarify what you mean?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Quote:

In my house my wife takes care of the finances (one of the things I gave into to keep the peace but that’s another issue altogether) and for several years I asked, encouraged and suggested that we pay a few extra mortgage payments a year but we “could never afford it”. However, during my spiritual progress I suggested we start paying tithing and all the sudden we were paying as much to the church as we pay in mortgage…every month. We will never pay this house off before I die. Am I complaining about something that should be on a different board altogether? I can delete this if necessary.

Are you saying that you had the money all along to make a few mortgage payments? And that it was found when you started paying tithing (meaning you had it all along), so now you are frustrated? That is what I am hearing. You can also construe your statement to mean that after you started paying tithing, you suddenly found your limited dollar stretched….giving a bit of supernaturality to the tithing concept. Can you clarify what you mean?

Thanks for asking for clarity SD. It means you’re looking closely and wondering how to respond. I don’t believe for a minute that we are able to stretch our dollar magically because we started paying tithing. I knew from the start that it was going to be a burden and was prepared to sacrifice for doing the right thing but this has turned into two separate points of dissatisfaction for me. The first point which I not so clearly touched on above is that I had advocated for years making extra payments to pay off our mortgage before retirement so I wouldn’t have to keep working but was met with resistance from my wife (because we didn’t have the extra funds) until finally I gave up. Suddenly however we are able to come up with what would be equal to ten mortgage payments a year to be full tithe payers. This upsets me to no end and it’s not that I regret my decision to be a tithe payer but I just think of all those years we could have been paying down the mortgage. I’ll be well into my 80’s with a house payment.

The second thing is that this is not without major burdens. Right away we cancelled our family vacation the first year and we have gone away maybe two times together since. Priority and sacrifice, right? Any financial emergency related to home, auto or whatever is almost catastrophic and will at least take time to pay off. Forget socking away any savings.

I was able to find a need in a different department and work about 20 weekend days a year. That OT cash goes into a separate account to fund recreation mostly for my son and I. Half of those days are Sundays but if it weren’t for those weekends we would be absolutely without recreation. One of my peers in EQ who is now an HP asked me if I was trying to get rich by working Sunday’s. Comments like that don’t fade away for me.

Maybe griping and complaining here is going to help me see things from 10k altitude and maybe I’ll come to my senses, maybe someone will straighten me out, I don’t know. One of my main problems is I don’t believe in divine help. I just think phooey when someone gets up in sacrament and says “if you pay your tithing everything will work out, everything will be OK”. What would my bishop say if he knew my true feelings?

[Anonymous]

It does seem to work out for some people – but I’ve paid a full tithe all my life and been unemployed and on church assistance more than once. I don’t begrudge those whose experiences lead them to believe it will work out; I just don’t agree with it as worded.

Fwiw, I think you need to separate tithing from the overall situation you described. The root of it appears to be money management by your wife, based on her priorities – and, frankly, I’m not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. 😆

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

It does seem to work out for some people – but I’ve paid a full tithe all my life and been unemployed and on church assistance more than once. I don’t begrudge those whose experiences lead them to believe it will work out; I just don’t agree with it as worded.

Fwiw, I think you need to separate tithing from the overall situation you described. The root of it appears to be money management by your wife, based on her priorities – and, frankly, I’m not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. 😆

🙂

I don’t blame ya, that’s not what were here for. Feel free to correct me where needed though.

[Anonymous]

Kipper wrote:

observant wrote:

I haven’t read this whole thread but I just want to say thanks to those who still pay tithing. It provides me with employment. it is my hope that my work is at least somewhat important and relevant.

How does me paying tithing provide you with employment?

I am an employee of the church.

[Author]

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