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I love that post Val. Thank you. Nice Val. Thanks for that.
swimordie wrote:
Are we (lds) striving so hard for perfection because of trying to become like Christ/follow His example?
Sometimes. I honestly think that some of it is self-preservation – we don’t want to make choices to end up in a bad place in the next life. This includes pathways that MAY lead us there – even if there is good to be had in the pathway.
swimordie wrote:
Where does His example of unconditional love fall in that paradigm?
I think there are 2 developmental processes at play here:
1. We are learning how to be better followers of Christ usually by teaching another generation in some fashion the things we have learned AND/OR reviewing the things that previous generations have taught us. At the start of this process there is a lot of “Don’ts” for safety and best practice reasons – and sometimes it is hard for us to transition from seeing(teaching) that person as someone we are over to someone we are counsel to. It becomes easy to focus on the “how” of obeying the rules without moving onto the “why” of obeying the rules (the highest motivation is love) and “what” the PEMDAS of rules (or rule hierarchy) exists.
2. Along with the first developmental process is the ability to recognize that not everyone is at the same point developmentally and t
here are plenty of reasons why this is the case. In the last 6 months or so, I ask people things like “what are you working on for yourself, why is this important to you, and how is it going” and then I “mourn” with them if the situation warrants it, or recognize them for their successes. I stopped trying to define the situations that require morning or celebration against some specific rules. I feel I am drawing closer to people by doing this, and that I am drawing closer to God as well. swimordie wrote:
In my mind, there appears to be a practical conflict: how is love, both giving and receiving, affected by our OCD drive for perfection?
True Love (whether it is tough love, VT, parenting, service to others, or being in a relationship) means continually looking towards how to serve, love, and help others. It is not tied to the expectations of others aside from God because you are loving someone to love them, not to fulfill an obligation (NOTE: A person needs to keep in mind when learning to show or receive love a) there are boundaries/safety issues that need to be resolved first and may be at play b) that love is both about the good uplifting feelings and the grittiness of dealing with mortality (and unwise/immature decisions))
OCD drive for perfection is by it’s nature introspective.
Because on multiple levels they are opposite functions, balance is crucial and very hard to achieve for very long.
swimordie wrote:
Can perfect love and perfect obedience coincide?
I am staking my life on that through believing in Jesus Christ and in the Atonement.
I try to look for instances where perfect love and perfect obedience collide in parental figures and church leaders. It is a case of generational and leadership roulette. However, my 8 year old humbles me in the micro-instances where she loves me as perfectly as she is able to do so, shows that love for me, and is obedient to the rules as a) I have taught them or b) required that she obey them.
Rix wrote:
Okay…another “twisted” answer from me…
I think that neither exists without the other. God IS love, so if we are to obey God perfectly, I submit that is done, and only done, with perfect love.
This works for me.
swimordie wrote:
What’s more important, love or obedience? Why?
It depends on the specific objective and the developmental level involved.
For some principles, I want my children to obey them first, and learn to love/respect them later (if at all).
For most principles, my job is to introduce the general concepts and my understanding based on my narrative with my children. This is my right/priviledge/responsibility as their parent. But more importantly, there comes a point where I teach them to run cost-benefit analysises of their own (including the consequences of those choices for themselves) and I face the unintended consequences of those choices as well. At that point, the training wheels are off and the child is spiritually flying whichever way they are going to go. As they learn to soar and fall, my role becomes more counselor and less director.
With new converts and those who are already developed as people, my role is to be a cheer leader, counselor and sounding board. I become a mentor only in the sense that maybe some of the habits they wish to trade up out of I have been there too and can offer a few words of practical advice.
swimordie wrote:
(btw, these are semi-rhetorical questions, but for TBM’s I perceive a real dilemma, though none would be admitted, admittedly(pss-if this is just a silly mind exercise between stage 3 and stage 5, someone just say so)
The big problem I am beginning to have with the scriptures is that they were written for societies that were very much in survival mode. The consequences of disobedience were religious, social, and could be physical as well. If you wanted to walk away from the rules, there was a real chance that someone would actually stab you in the back as opposed to just turning your social life into shreds – and you wouldn’t live long enough to care anyways. Now, society is moving beyond that – between people living longer (and having time to think) and having more reliable access to food and education, the rules that served previous generations well are stretching like a rubber band now – and some of us are in the way of the rubber.
Old Timer wrote:
Ultimately, we believe that we will be judged according to our obedience to our own consciences – and our attempts to change our natural (wo)man into the image of our ideal, GOD.It’s finding the balance between those two ideals that is fascinating and difficult for me – letting the second ideal guide my attempts to understand and live according to the first ideal. The central struggle, imo, might be not letting the first ideal overshadow the second – not allowing our perception of what we are inclined to do to take priority over what we MUST do to learn and grow and stretch.
I like this. It could be that if life = you piloting an airplane that the 2 ideals are left and right of you, and use those ideals to course correct and chart your course.
swimordie wrote:
How does the “striving for perfection” get in the way of loving? Or, maybe better said: why does “striving for perfection” get in the way of loving?
1. I think that “striving for perfection” changes the target away from “loving God” and “loving others”.
2. I think that “striving for perfection” gets in the way of loving others because it introduces an external value that others will judge and be judged by. As we all know, it is very easy to be judged (and judge on) on a WoW call, attire, parenting decision, career choice, journal-writing, temple attending – any checkbox we want to create. And some of those judgements are accurate judgements to make regarding security and other consequences. However, at times, I think we make these judgements instead of asking ourselves honestly a) have we showed others we love them today
in a way they understood, b) did we show love to ourselves today by balancing our commitments with our resources and passions, and c) Did we act on a prompting that resonated within us as if it was from God?
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