Perhaps I’m a minority…

[Anonymous]

I’m dating a girl I have always liked, even though it’s long-distance. Do I have your attention yet? Good. She is a convert to the church. We were talking on FaceTime a couple of days ago and she was very straightforward. She said “there are two things you need to know about me. I hope you don’t find them as deal breakers, but I need to be honest. 1) I know you like Donald Trump, and always have, but I can’t stand him.”

I thought “dang it, she’s like every other woman I’ve ever dated, but I honestly didn’t expect much different.”

It got worse for me. She said “2) Homosexual relations don’t bother me. If people want to be like that and get married, that’s more than fine with me. I think children are best off with conventional parents, but I know of some outstanding gay couples as well. I know many homosexual individuals and they’re such good people. I am aware of the church’s policies, but I standby with what I say.”

My heart dropped, but I didn’t show it. I smiled and said “thank you for being honest and straightforward.” I found that attractive because I like genuine people. The last girl I dated would say anything to make me happy even if it was the last thing that she thought of.

I looked into issue number 2) more. Let’s talk about two things… What I’ve thought about the issue on my whole life, and what I have recently discovered.

What I have thought:

I am going to give the members of this forum a chance to exercise their compulsory charity on me since I am going against the grain of popular opinion, from what I have read. I will be straightforward like the girl I am dating was to me—I find homosexual relations repulsive. I cringe when I see two men for instance displaying public affection. I completely agreed with the church’s stance on delaying the blessings of baptism for children raised in homosexual households until they’re older. I’m the last person to ever be a TBM member, but that is a policy I completely agreed with. I see churches across the nation changing their views on homosexual relationships, but I love how ours is a solid rock, an iron rod, a bastion, of eternal principle. To me, it is a token of the divinity of such policy. I know that the church will never permit homosexual relations to be sealed for time and eternity in the temple. It is far too contrary to the beliefs that have always been espoused. It is not rational, nor does it seem healthy.

I have a couple friends who are homosexual. I have nothing bad to say about them! I don’t blame them for being born that way. I think there would be no burden more sore and grievous to be had than that one. If I was in their shoes, I would do what they do—live gospel standards, acknowledge the truth (some are very open about it), and not act on it. Be healed in the life to come. That makes sense to me. We all have burdens in life, and through Christ, they are all healed in the next life. Life is just a blip of our eternal existence. I would wait for Christ to heal me. That’s why I don’t like seeing such a push for such homosexual relations. It goes against what I have always been taught, and what I have always believed.

What I have discovered:

I watched a presentation on why people leave the church. If you asked members of my former elderly ward, everyone would say the following: “People leave because they read anti-LDS literature, stop studying the scriptures, and cease praying.” I have always bought into that narrative, but after looking at numerous studies, I see that it is simply not true. All of these studies share an overwhelmingly similar message. The real top-three reasons why people leave the church aren’t what the elderly have always told me. People leave the church because 1) of its stiff culture, because 2) of its NUMEROUS historical skeletons and 3) because of the church’s treatment of homosexual individuals, and the policies thereof.

How damaging was the policy of withholding baptismal blessings to children in homosexual families? A lot apparently, especially among women from what I have found. I am shocked that people have felt so hurt by this, and I am blind to such pain. Lots of it too. I think there is a major paradigm shift with younger latter-day saints, especially those outside of Utah, like with the woman I am now dating. I standby my thoughts on homosexual relations, but I am curious to hear from you on your thoughts. I wish this didn’t have to be an issue. I wish there wasn’t such suffering in the LDS culture of these people too. If makes sense though since this life was meant to be anything but easy and orderly. I wonder in the grand scheme of things, what does Jesus Christ think about all of this? After all, my trust is only in Him, not in flesh. What does He think of these policies? It is hard to say since I am no representative.

I am grateful for the chance to date this woman. Such differing opinions do not bother me. In fact, her two deal breakers she shared with me are espoused by none other than my mother herself. I see a lot of compassion in her. Maybe it is I, who is in need of further instruction on the matter…

[Anonymous]

I’ll reciprocate, thank you for being honest and straightforward.

One note before I begin… given the subjects brought up in the initial post there’s a potential for the conversation to turn political. Please remember that the mission of this site is to support people in their desires to remain engaged with the LDS church. This is not a site for political discussion or debate. Let’s all be careful to honor the mission of this site and leave political discussions to other forums.

Great, now I’ve got to find a way to live up to my own advice. :crazy:

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I find homosexual relations repulsive. I cringe when I see two men for instance displaying public affection.

I’m going to change the subject matter to illustrate my point. I find those tiny squid at Chinese restaurants repulsive. You know, the tiny squid that look exactly like tiny squids. :sick: I cringe when I see people eating them. If I were in a position of power, would it be okay for me to ban people from eating tiny squid?

Another approach would be to step into the shoes of a gay person. What if you found heterosexual relations repulsive? What if the thought of kissing a girl made you cringe?

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I see churches across the nation changing their views on homosexual relationships, but I love how ours is a solid rock, an iron rod, a bastion, of eternal principle. To me, it is a token of the divinity of such policy. I know that the church will never permit homosexual relations to be sealed for time and eternity in the temple. It is far too contrary to the beliefs that have always been espoused. It is not rational, nor does it seem healthy.

Are traditions of our fathers a token of divinity for no other reason than because they are traditions of our fathers? It’s a well-worn comparison but what if the church remained steadfast in barring blacks from the priesthood? What if, in 2017, the church stuck to their guns and blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood? Would that make the church more divine than it is today? Interracial relationships is another good example (at least in the USA).

If ours is the responsibility to hold fast and be unchanging to what has been received then what purpose does continued revelation serve? Could continued revelation point to a higher law? The Law of Moses immediately comes to mind. Anciently one could resist Christ’s higher law by resting on the solid rock, the iron rod, and eternal principles of the preparatory law.

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I have a couple friends who are homosexual. I have nothing bad to say about them! I don’t blame them for being born that way. I think there would be no burden more sore and grievous to be had than that one. If I was in their shoes, I would do what they do—live gospel standards, acknowledge the truth (some are very open about it), and not act on it. Be healed in the life to come. That makes sense to me. We all have burdens in life, and through Christ, they are all healed in the next life. Life is just a blip of our eternal existence. I would wait for Christ to heal me. That’s why I don’t like seeing such a push for such homosexual relations. It goes against what I have always been taught, and what I have always believed.

I’m going to go back to my tiny squid example. What if I managed to convince everyone that eating tiny squid was morally wrong. What if there was a small island in the Pacific where the tiny squid was the only food source. No problem. Just be obedient, abstain from eating, and it will be taken care of in the next life. Bonus, if you can’t eat you’ll get there that much quicker.

It’s not a particularly good analogy but I wanted to toss it over the fence to get some ideas out there.

I think it comes down to empathy and sympathy. “I feel bad for them because of their struggles” is one thing. “I’ll fight for them because their struggles are my struggles” is another. I think that’s why our narrative of Christ has him experiencing our sufferings first-hand, because that’s how he becomes our advocate. That’s how he can extend mercy. That’s how he learned to love.

[Anonymous]

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I wonder in the grand scheme of things, what does Jesus Christ think about all of this? After all, my trust is only in Him, not in flesh. What does He think of these policies? It is hard to say since I am no representative.

What did Jesus actually say on the matter? We don’t know. Even if there was something explicitly written in the NT about it one way or the other those would still be Jesus’ words through a filter, not words from Jesus himself.

In a way you are a representative of Jesus. When we’re baptized we take upon ourselves his name. We spend a lot of time looking for words of Jesus in scripture and other authoritative sources. What does your inner Jesus say? How would you chose to represent Jesus?

[Anonymous]

FC, I used to feel very similarly to the way you do, though I don’t think I’ve ever felt repulsed by gays. Maybe weirded out at the most. I was simply told homosexuality was wrong and I didn’t see enough reason or evidence to refute that. (FWIW, I’m significantly more hesitant to align with transgender issues and I don’t want to lump them into the same category as bi/gay people. I recognize the existence and debilitating nature of gender dysphoria and the only stance I really feel like I can take is to not do hormone therapy until after puberty.)

After some more recent interactions on the forum, I have come to realize that the God I know and love would not doom any his children to a life of misery because of something outside their control. He would not set them up for failure. If God wanted gay people to be straight, he would have made it possible. But he didn’t. Conversion therapy doesn’t work at all, ever and is very emotionally damaging. Celibacy will never be a satisfying life to live, especially in a church that puts so much value and cultural worth in being married.

I feel the evidence in favor of homosexuality is at odds with the church’s current state. But I believe that if it is the true church, the two will someday be reconciled. I don’t know when and I don’t know how, but it will happen eventually if the church is true. I will not put pressure on the church to make it happen because I don’t want the church to change because of social/political pressure; it needs to change because it is the right thing to do. I will not impose any limitations on what that reconciliation must be. I accept the possibility that either or both the church and I can be wrong; all I know is that we can’t both be right.

[Anonymous]

I used to be like you and slowly over time I now believe the opposite. For me, I started listening to stories of LGBT people and that got me to start empathizing with them. I also started swapping things. For example, I’d imagine if everything was the opposite, that heterosexual marriages were against God’s plan and I either had to stay celibate and alone forever or marry a woman (I’m a woman) and how that would make me feel. Also, the idea that after this life homosexuals will become heterosexual: imagine if it was the opposite, that we get up to heaven and find out everyone will become homosexuals, would I enjoy that? No, not really. I’m attracted to men and it would be a strange heaven for me to be turned into someone who was suddenly attracted to women when I’ve been attracted to men my whole life. So those are a couple things that have helped me see from their point of view, if that’s what you’re wanting to do. I know it can be really hard to change our views on things we’ve been raised into, so it makes sense if you always hold that view. Most people were raised in homes where LGBT people were seen as weirdos and unnatural, gay marriage hasn’t been around or accepted in the U.S. for very long. It’s also hard to know what exactly Christ thought about gay marriage. It wasn’t really practiced in biblical times so he never said anything about it. I don’t even remember if he had an opinion on marriage in general. At least from my memory of the stories of him while he was on the earth. There’s people who have received revelation about it, but revelation can be affected by our own biases so who’s to say if those are accurate? Especially since gay marriage has been seen as bad in many societies for so long. Anyway, those were a few of my thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Always Thinking wrote:

It wasn’t really practiced in biblical times so he never said anything about it.

The Emperor Nero had two same-sex weddings, and it was practised in ancient China, ancient Greece and Mesopotamia.

[Anonymous]

It makes my heart hurt that we as a nation are so divided. My understanding is that the Russians created Facebook groups that encouraged division. They were encouraging white supremacy and second amendment AND transgender bathroom rights and many other causes. They did not care what the cause was. They were playing both sides and stoking conflict. I do not mean to say that our division is the fault of the Russians, only that it appears that Russian hackers have been attempting to help push it along – hoping to gain from the resulting chaos.

I do not believe Donald Trump has a particular talent for bringing people together. This saddens me because I want my nation to be united, civil, and cooperative – despite differences.

[moderator note] This is a very delicate subject and I am sure that there are many differences of opinion held by people here. I have tried hard to talk only about how I feel about what I see and read about. Please refrain from specific policy discussions and especially from personal attacks. Thank you![End moderator note]

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I find homosexual relations repulsive.

I had a close friend come out to me as gay in high school. He told me that he found gay sexual relations to be gross but he was definitely romantically attracted to males. I told him that if we looked at it from a sanitary perspective all sexual relations would be messy, unsanitary, and “gross.” Not long ago, we explained the birds and the bees to my 11 year old daughter. She had a similar reaction and felt that it was gross. Honestly I do not think that there are that many differences between homosexual and heterosexual relations as far as simple mechanics.

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I have a couple friends who are homosexual. I have nothing bad to say about them! I don’t blame them for being born that way. I think there would be no burden more sore and grievous to be had than that one. If I was in their shoes, I would do what they do—live gospel standards, acknowledge the truth (some are very open about it), and not act on it. Be healed in the life to come. That makes sense to me. We all have burdens in life, and through Christ, they are all healed in the next life. Life is just a blip of our eternal existence. I would wait for Christ to heal me. That’s why I don’t like seeing such a push for such homosexual relations. It goes against what I have always been taught, and what I have always believed.

[snip]

How damaging was the policy of withholding baptismal blessings to children in homosexual families? A lot apparently, especially among women from what I have found. I am shocked that people have felt so hurt by this, and I am blind to such pain. Lots of it too.

For me it helps to think about it in terms of my children. Would I want my child to live a marginalized, lonely, and largely loveless life when there were more fulfilling and life affirming options available? If I were gay married, how might my Mother feel about her grandchildren being barred from the church that she has dedicated her life to – simply because of who her son loves? Are they simply written off as acceptable collateral damage in the culture wars?

Falcon20Commander wrote:

Be healed in the life to come.

I feel that this point deserves to be addressed all on its own. Did you know that BY and BRM and others taught that the black priesthood ban would someday be removed? Yes, they taught that it would be removed after the resurrection. I could own a black man as a slave (Slavery was legal in the Utah territory under BY). I could prevent him holding the priesthood, going through the temple, or being sealed to his family. I could tell him that it is for his own good and that he needs benevolent white people like me to direct and oversee him. Is my clear racism, discrimination, and subjugation of a fellow human being made at all more tolerable or justified because I also teach that his circumstances will be changed in the life to come? That he will be made whole (more like me) and all the injustices will be made right? “Don’t worry, God did not create you to a second class citizen forever – only in this life.”

I am sure you get my drift. Telling someone that this will be corrected in the next life can be cold comfort in the here and now. Telling that same person that this will be corrected in the next life to help me feel better about excluding them in the here and now seems outrageous. As I believe is evident from the Black Priesthood Ban, the problem was never with God. It was with ourselves and the state of our own heart.

[Anonymous]

@nibbler

Thank you for the lengthy reply and the analogy of the squid. Honestly though, your response has too many what-ifs for me. This is an issue with no similar comparison. I just don’t believe Christ would have a higher law regarding this issue from what we already have. I do wish it was more well defined in the numerous revelations we hold dear to us, but I believe with all my heart that this is a principle the church is defending, not a policy unlike some of the flawed policies that they have enforced in the past. That is my testimony, because of the fruits I have seen from homosexual relationships—no procreation. My “inner Jesus” says stand for what’s right, even if heaven and hell combine against you. On a positive note, I love your definition of sympathy vs. empathy. I’ve never heard anyone expound on the dichotomy of the two. I have learned something new today.

@Beefster

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your insights on the matter. Now then, how do you know that God would have made it possible to become straight? What if He didn’t want it for them in this life? I don’t feel comfortable accepting what you said “he would have made it possible.” What if the church is doing the right thing? I believe they are, they are just not going about it the best way they can. Call me naïve, but that’s where I am at. I believe it’s going to get ugly for the church with internal and external opposition to change our stance on this; however, the truth will prevail. On this issue my brother, I will cast my lots with the church.

@Always Thinking

Thank you for your heartfelt reply. I don’t think with emotions that much. I think with logic, and honestly, I don’t see the logic in your post. By that logic of homosexuals remaining homosexuals in the next life, my friend will still be an alcoholic, since he has had alcohol exposure since he was in his mother’s womb. I don’t buy either claims for a minute. I believe the next life will bring us relief (probably a gradual process), of the anomalies and temptations that have tethered us down if we chose to accept the freedom in Christ’s atonement. I think everyone’s eternal identity is one of heterosexual origins (i.e. pre-mortal life). Homosexuality comes with physical defects in the body I believe. I have been in extreme pain before, for a short period of time. It altered my perceptions, thought process, and outlook on life in ways I couldn’t believe. So is it with life. Everyone has pains that hinder truth, pains that are only to be removed after this life, as a learning experience. That’s where I am at on that thought. About the biases with the revelation, I don’t know. I do wish there was more material on the matter. It seems Paul warned a few times about such relationships.

@SamBee

Hello!

@Roy

Point taken. Your last two paragraphs are powerfully written. I wish there wasn’t suffering from anyone; however, just because it was abused with the racial policy, doesn’t mean that it’s not right for this particular principle. I hate to have these people endure such cold comfort, but I don’t see any other way around it considering that I believe that homosexual relations, on an intimate scale, are expressly forbidden by God. I’m glad I’m not in charge.

I am not trying to argue with anyone, I just want to express my point while I hear others’ points.

Thanks

[Anonymous]

I appreciate that we can have thoughtful discussions on this forum, especially when we approach it with the idea to learn from others’ perspectives, as you said…

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I see a lot of compassion in her. Maybe it is I, who is in need of further instruction on the matter…

That’s wise to approach topics like that.

I find it odd that the church states this (from LDS.org on topics: Family)

Quote:

The Lord has designated the family to be the basic unit of the Church and of society. As used in the scriptures, a family consists of a husband and wife, children, and sometimes other relatives living in the same house or under one family head. A family can also be a single person living alone, a single parent with children, or a husband and wife without children.

President Boyd K. Packer taught, “The ultimate purpose of every teaching, every activity in the Church is that parents and their children are happy at home, sealed in an eternal marriage, and linked to their generations” (“The Father and the Family,” Ensign or Liahona, May 1994). Family relationships extend beyond the grave when we are sealed by the priesthood of God in a holy temple and remain faithful.

So…families can come in lots of forms and there are lots of personal circumstances in this life.

1) Husband and wife with children

2) Husband and wife without children

3) Sometimes other relatives living in the same house (I can see grandparents raising grandchildren considered a family)

4) Single parents

5) Single person living alone

These variations don’t disrupt God’s plan, which the purpose of it is as BKP said:

Quote:

“The ultimate purpose of every teaching, every activity in the Church is that parents and their children are happy at home, sealed in an eternal marriage, and linked to their generations”

Lots of ways to do that. Lots of options. Happiness is the key, building eternal relationships, teaching gospel principles.

To me, it almost sounds like a Monty Python skit, or a South Park farce to then say…

Quote:

Oh…but…ya…no homosexuals. That’s wrong. Scriptures say so.

Really? :eh: That makes logical sense? How so?

In my experience, the scriptures are so vague and unreliable on specifics, we don’t know much at all about the afterlife…we just interpret and assume a lot of things. And we seem to keep learning more and more about this life that previously was unthinkable because of tradition of thought (as the church essays claim happens with race and other issues).

It’s not an easy straight forward answer. It is conservative vs liberal lines of thinking. And I can’t say which is right.

But since there is gray area…since there is logical room for debate and various opinions…then isn’t the safest route one of greater compassion for all? I don’t believe the Church’s policy is compassionate. It is placing order and rules and authority above compassion, even if they are going to try to do it as lovingly as possible, they are not willing to consent on their position.

They have a right to do that.

I have a right to disagree with it, and I fully expect to see the policies change to greater charity and compassion on all of God’s children. I hope that happens sooner and not later, and focus on teachings about the true purpose of God’s work and glory.

I see the policy contradictory to the purposes the church claims to be teaching. I understand many apologetic defenses of it, and that is fine. But none of those change the pain it is causing to people unnecessarily.

As such…I respect your view of this issue as equally valid as others, whoever is in the minority or not. I extend that compassion as well, and hope to learn from your posts.

[Anonymous]

Falcon – You’ve stumped me here

Quote:

What if the church is doing the right thing? I believe they are, they are just not going about it the best way they can.

What way would be better?

What do you see that they are trying to achieve?

How does this compare to polygamy – Joseph’s style of polygamy.

Nibbler – The squid do gross me out. We had dim sum last night and the table next to us had a pile of squid. Gag reflex overload for me.

[Anonymous]

To the issue of why people leave the church I’ll just quote Pres. Uchtdorf from “Come, Join With Us.” (And I think some of it applies to the topic as a whole.)

Quote:

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?” Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

(emphasis added)

[Anonymous]

Falcon20Commander wrote:

Thank you for the lengthy reply and the analogy of the squid. Honestly though, your response has too many what-ifs for me. This is an issue with no similar comparison.

My point with the squids wasn’t to make a 1:1 comparison. My only point was to question whether something is wrong for everyone because it happens to gross out some subset. But I get how even then it’s not the best of comparisons.

I do use a lot of what-if. It’s my way of attempting to view the world from other people’s perspectives. E.g. What if I were gay? And then go from there.

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I just don’t believe Christ would have a higher law regarding this issue from what we already have.

Fair enough. I suspect that’s where we differ.

[Anonymous]

I used to feel close to what you describe.

But actually I don’t think I can say anything that will change your mind.

I don’t know if I can fully explain it, but I have done a 180.

This isn’t THE reason I am leaving the church, but it made deciding to leave a damn easy decision. It just feels like it is so far away from any type of God that I would want to worship.

I do like that this site is generally quite good about being able to discuss items like this.

[Anonymous]

Falcon20Commander wrote:

I completely agreed with the church’s stance on delaying the blessings of baptism for children raised in homosexual households until they’re older. I’m the last person to ever be a TBM member, but that is a policy I completely agreed with…

Without even going into the issue of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, I think this was a very badly thought out policy and has unintended consequences. They had to backtrack on much of it.

Consider the following scenarios:

* TBM child’s parent comes out late in their childhood. If most older children are threatened by the idea of a new stepparent, well X this by 2 for a same sex one. The TBM child may not agree with their parent’s lifestyle, and may even despise it but is frozen in the church for another’s actions.

* Child living with heterosexual parent active in the church loses out, because the other parent is lgbt, even if they rarely see them. I dated a girl in high school whom I suspect is mostly orientated towards her own gender. At the time I didn’t know this. What if we had married and had children? Would my children pay the penalty despite me being straight?

The elephant in the room is that free agency is taken away for another’s actions.

[Anonymous]

Falcon20Commander wrote:

Homosexuality comes with physical defects in the body I believe

We can certainly have diversity of thought here as long as we remain respectful and constructive towards our mission. We have had several LGBQT individuals participate over the years. I think that this dialogue has a possibility to be offensive to them in a uniquely personal way and we should recognize that. We can essentially be telling them that their gender orientation, romantic affection, and/or sexuality are mistakes of biology and that to act on them are sinful. I do not know if there is a tactful way to say that but we must try if it is to be expressed here.

Just as a side note to our attempt to accommodate diversity of thought, we have had individuals participate who identified as FLDS and RLDS. It can take work to have respectful constructive conversations considering the differences, but we manage it.

[Author]

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